I never thought it was a proper insult anyway, gay or lame. A yr or so a ago, we decided to stop saying it. It took us a few months to stop b/c they always hear it at school.
A year later my 17yo daughter’s best friend confided to us that she’s gay. No kidding.
When I younger (10-12) I made a friend while attending karate lessons. Later we went to high school together. We both used “gay” to describe people and things that sucked.
He later came out as gay.
We still use those terms, laughing all the while.
True story.
I don’t know who of my High School friends were gay, as I haven’t kept in touch with any of them, but I do recall my own attitudes towards homosexuality were typical of a teenager, and not very progressive. That was partially a reflection of the times, and my not really thinking about it that much. I don’t know if I was ever overtly offensive about it, though.
During the 90s, when I was in my 20s, I had about five friends I considered my closest. Over half, that is three of them, were gay. This didn’t bother me at all, as they were no different in any way than any of my other friends, in terms of companionship and entertainment value and advisors and loyalty, etc. During that time it never really bothered me what sexual orientation people are. Though we’ve all gone our separate ways (and one died) I still count them as the best friends I have ever had.
As far as I know none of my current crop of friends are gay. If they are, they’re keeping it close to their chests.
Oh, I used to work in porn, and though a lot of it is artificially induced, a few of my co-workers were genuinely lesbian.
Me too. I’ve got no problems with homosexuality (and I’ve said before I fully support gay marriage) but I’m not especially comfortable around outrageously effeminate gays in much the same way I’m not especially comfortable around particularly “girly” women or guys that are really into The Footy.
Oredigger77:
“I have no problem with the gay men I’ve know who act normal but I’m uncomfortable around the effeminate ones.”
I don’t get it. IWhy does the effeminate issue matter? As long as they’re not being effeminate to you, at you or touching you, who gives a f*ck? A person with a healthy self-esteem is not usually uncomfortable around many people. So girly girls should be denied rights because you’e uncomfortable?
I’m being snarky, I know. But one would hope we all can move beyond this at some point. I understand (sort of) your message guys, but honestly, it’s on caveman. level.
I just find it… odd. I don’t know how the behaviour might be learned or developed, or why its necessary for them to live their lives like that. Its not hard to miss and only ever seems to be there for the benefit of having other people turn around take notice of them.
The thread is about homophobia specifically, but I’ll mention that there are other forced behaviours that I don’t like or understand, not related to homosexuality. The “laddish” girls I see on the busses on the way back from collecting or dropping off my daughter for example. Swearing more than casually would allow, bragging about what they might do to men, I shudder to think of my daughter being that way.
Bolding mine.
So, for you, anything that falls outside a narrow range of traditional gender-appropriate behavior must be “forced.” Could it be that these people are acting in a way that feels natural to them, and that the only “forced” behavior in this scenario is your belief that you can read their minds?
I was married to a physically disabled man who is bisexual, but really mostly homosexual. He used both terms to describe something negative fairly often, but he also has (had? I haven’ seen him in six years) a lot of issues, and was uncomfortable in his own skin. His reaction to other people’s use of gay or lame in the sense of “dorkily unfortunate” was random and could venture into either end the extreme. (Psychotic phone calls to former friends at 3 am, or a big laugh and order-another-round.)
I avoid use of either term, especially around my 6.5 year old son (the ex’s biological issue). My boyfriend (my son’s Dad for the last three years) who is straight but very open minded sexually never uses it because he finds it insulting. And the boyfriend once gave me the what-for because I used the term “retarded” in a way he thought was unfair.
Oddly, I was bothered a bit one day when the boyfriend told me that our mutual friend, a gay man, had made a pass at him. “Bothered” is probably too strong a word, it was over in a minute or three but it was weird. We’re all still friends, so no biggie. (And no, boyfriend did not take gay friend on the offer of hot man action…)
Bolding mine, what do you mean by that? I didn’t think effeminate or loutish behaviour took up much of the broad spectrum of human behaviours and mannerisms (unless that’s a swipe at Belfast on St Patricks day…)
If you had expressed a general dislike of effeminate or loutish behavior, you might have a point.
But your argument seems not to be with “effeminate” behavior, as such, but rather with “effeminate” behavior when engaged in by men.
And you don’t seem to be concerned about “loutish” behavior, in general, but only about “loutish” behavior by girls.
If you don’t understand why that might be interpreted as a hostility to actions that fall outside “a narrow range of traditional gender-appropriate behavior,” then there’s probably no point me trying to explain it to you.
None of my friends have any gay friends so I’m guessing they are a little uncomfortable with it. I’ve had a few gay friends I guess but I usually didn’t know about it until I lost contact and figured it out later via Facebook.
I think Magiver said it the best.
I think you misunderstood me.
Bolding mine as you might have guessed. For example, as in one from a list. Chosen as I felt it was to the opposite end of the spectrum from the behaviour of effiminate homosexual men, just in case someone wondered if it was only that behaviour that I found odd.
Pushkin, the point mhendo is making is that you seem to be uncomfortable around people who don’t “act” like their gender. Laddish girls and effeminate men.
mhendo is saying that there is no such thing as gender-specific personalities. If you would find a feminine woman normal, you should find a feminine man normal.
I’m not saying I agree (because I don’t), but that’s what he/she is saying.
Ok, thanks.
I don’t attempt to understand why something is clocked by my mind as odd, just that it catches my attention. I only provided examples, not the rationale behind them.
Actually, i’m not even saying that. I was simply criticizing his use of the term “forced behaviour.”
Even if the behavior described is not “normal,” in the sense of being unusual, this doesn’t mean that it’s somehow forced, or done only for display or to make other people uncomfortable. For all we know, many (most?) gay men who act in an “effeminate” way, and women who act in a “laddish” way, feel perfectly natural in doing so. The only reason to think otherwise is to buy into notions of what is and is not gender-appropriate behavior.
I’m not sexually attracted to male people and yet all my life I’ve been subjec to folks saying I act “like a girl”, effeminate, not like a man / boy, etc etc.
And yes it has nearly always been with the attitude & assumption that I am somehow DOING something, ON PURPOSE. (And that I know damn well what I’m doing and that I damn well ought to STOP IT. Some people have been almost apoplectically furious about it).
I’ve worked with a number of gay people, and without exception the excessively effeminate gay men and super-“girly” (hetero) girls have had a tendency towards drama and “special snowflake”-ness not present in the “normal” gays and women I’ve worked with.
I’m not uncomfortable around effeminate gays in a “general public” environment (say, at the pub where one of the guys two tables over is a flaming queen) because I’m not interacting with them. And like I said, it’s the same whether we’re talking about “mannish” women or ultra-macho guys.
You can whinge all you like about how unfair it is that society has all these “gender-appropriate” behaviours that you disagree with, but the reality is that the rest of society disagrees with you and you’re outnumbered. That doesn’t mean you should pretend to be someone you’re not, but it also means you don’t get to complain about people reacting negatively to you when you behave like (in their opinion) a weirdie in public.
Oh, and who appointed you Official Arbiter of what I can and cannot complain about?
I’ve known a large number of gay men over the course of my adult life, including some of my closest friends. I think I’ve become comfortable with gay men over time; I’m pretty sure that I wasn’t as comfortable when I was a young man as I am now.
I suspect that I’m more comfortable than average with gay men, but, for all I know, I may be mistaken.
Parenthetically, if I’ve ever been hit on by a gay man, I was oblivious to it. 
The point I’m making is that if you choose to go against what society considers “normal” then you really shouldn’t be surprised or indignant about general people’s negative reaction towards you for doing so.