Questions regarding the myth that "Nice Guys Finish Last"

In My Humble Opinion
1

Disclaimers: 1) This is not a lame “Help! This girl chose an asshole over me!” thread (though this may end up being a lame thread). 2) I realize this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on the board.

Backstory: I’m pursuing a girl that currently has a live-in boyfriend. We have hung out when her boyfriend permits her to go out with friends (of course he doesn’t know that I’m involved). Said girl is coming over with one of her friends tonight. For the past couple of days, my room-mate has been giving me unsolicited advice about what I should do tonight. This primarily consists of “Treat her like shit, then fuck the shit out of her!” followed by a stupid grin, because surely, I’ve never known anyone who can use the word “shit” as cleverly as he.

My room-mate’s basic line of logic, supported by his situation with the girl currently pursuing him (who happens to be the other member of the party coming over tonight), is that the worse a man treats a woman, the more attracted to him that woman will be. He has been telling me that treating a girl well will get me nowhere with her, because “nice guys finish last.”

The point: Unfortunately, my room-mate’s position is one that I encountered quite often during my time in the Army and, in my age bracket (18-25), it seems to be an observable phenomenon. Also given that this belief is so prevalent, there must be some element of truth to it. My questions (and I am only interested in opinions) are as follows:

  1. Are a significant number of women really attracted to assholes, or are males just conditioned to believe that this is true?

  2. If many women are attracted to assholes, what is it about them that causes them to be attracted to men who will not treat them with respect?

  3. Doper women, are you attracted to men who treat females poorly? If you once were, but grew out of it, what are your opinions about that period of your life and what made you change your taste in men?

Keep in mind that I am not looking for recommendations regarding my current situation here. I have no intention of changing who I am (and I suppose I could be classified as a “nice guy”), even if it would increase my chances of attracting members of the opposite sex.

2

Not just women; careers, disputes, elections - the bad mofo will chew up the nice guy every time. It’s just ruthless Darwinism in action, and given that there’s a survival factor in having a slight* asshole edge then it might be supposed that women are preprogrammed to find this trait attractive, even though it means they get the asshole treatment too. There is no greater expert in this field than the late great Bill Hicks, and the totality of his research is summed up in the song Chicks Dig Jerks.

There are women out there who can overcome their instincts and see the worth in a thoroughly decent chap. As for the rest, maybe one day they’ll be sufficiently impressed by men being mean just to other assholes, not to their partners. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

  • Being a total asshole just leads to social isolation, and is therefore counterproductive. It seems that achieving just the right level of assholedom is the trick.
3

What does your friend mean “treat her like shit”? Does he actually get laid a lot or does he just talk a lot of “shit”?

Here’s how it works. Being outwardly a prick to people does not get you what you want - career, disputes, elections, nada. Being outwardly nice to people and then acting in your own interests whatever the consequences gets you what you want.

Here’s an example. You would be an “dick” in action for banging some chick who has a live in boyfriend (she would also be a slut and you really could never trust her as anything but a fuck doll). That does not mean you are going to be a jerk to her when she comes over and she’ll be like “ooh I want you!”.

Some people confuse playful teasing banter or being excessively forward or suggestive with being a dick. These are the same people who believe that women should be worshiped and showered with gifts and whatnot. You are not going to buy a woman into finding you attractive so why try?

What women often mean when they say a guy is a dick or an asshole is that they are pissed because the good looking, outwardly charming and nice guy they think is “the one” is now banging her friend. Or that he has now turned into a mean prick but they already feel too invested in the relationship.

4

Actually Leo Durocher said that nice guys were in seventh place.

http://www.ralphkeyes.com/pages/books/niceguys/

5

Wow, msmith537, for once I agree with you! Damn, this is scary. :wink:

First, I’d say the fact that you’re pursuing her despite her being attached is already pretty much treating her like shit. I don’t care if you don’t want reccomendations, this isn’t a reccomendation, it’s a fact.

Second, women do not like jerks. BUT, they do not like what I called Nice GuysTM. In other words, most women LOATHE guys who go around whining that they can’t get the girl because they’re a “nice guy” and women only like jerks. It’s insulting, it’s annoying, and whenever I hear it, it’s a HUGE warning sign.

This site pretty much sums up my, and I believe many womens’ feelings concerning the whole “Girls don’t like nice guys, they only like jerks!” Many guys who claim to be nice, aren’t. In fact, I’d say that the guys who go around saying things like “women only like assholes, they don’t like me because I’m a nice guy” aren’t nice at all. They’re just whiny assholes who refuse to admit it.

6

You don’t sound mature enough to engage in a relationship, particularly with someone who is already in a relationship. If you really need to ask a bunch of strangers if treating women like shit is a good way to get laid, you aren’t ready to play with the big girls.

7

Don’t worry, it happens to everyone eventually. :eek:
Let me just add that there are a lot of guys who are assholes but girls dig them anyway because of other factors - high profile, money, cool motorcycle, access to drugs, whatever. They get away with being assholes because people look past it.

8

“I’m pursuing a girl that currently has a live-in boyfriend…”

OH. You want the pussy. You don’t want a relationship. You want to tap that ass.

Because, you see, the rules are different for pussy hunting than they are for relationships. It’s expected that men be lying sacks of shits when all they’re after is the poonannny. This is where nice guys finish last: they’re not usually ruthless enough to say anything the girl wants to hear to get laid. Nice guys actually tend to get ahead in maturer relationships.

If you want a relationship, you, like all nice guys, need to learn the fine art of cockblocking: the first step of which is getting the object of your affections to share confidences about her current relationship so that you can assert all the ways her man is fucking up, underscore how he isn’t motivated enough, hardworking enough, doesn’t put her needs and dreams first enough, and how she can do better with you. Ideally this would mean you need to have a modicum of shit on the ball to convince her you can actually walk the talk, but there I can’t help you.

If you just want the pussy, be frank about what you want. Convince her, through dance moves, sheer lying, earnestness or having her give in to drunken impulse that you a) will absolutely thoroughly and completely rock her world in ways her boyfriend won’t or can’t and b) promise you will be discreet (even if you plan to take digital pictures and tell the world.) If she’s intrigued, you have a shot. If she’s at all devoted and faithful to her man, you’re screwed – but you might have a shot at one of her tagalong friends.

9

Never treat a woman like shit; pussy or no, it’s simply not right to do that. [/PSA]

Having said that, I have fleeting notion that women might subliminally associate a man’s emotional detachment with being a longer lasting lover; being all gaga seems to increase likelihood of premature ejaculation. Boooo-ring! I know, it’s totally wrong, but I just always wanted to throw that one out there.

Now, in this specific case (I know you’re not seeking advice, but here we are in IMHO!) the facts I have are that two women are coming over to your house. One of them is involved with your roomate. The other one, even though in a live-in relationship, is coming over to your house, and her boyfriend doesn’t know.

Assuming that this is all on purpose, and not a happenstance “oh, we’ll swing by on the way to the club” or something, then all I can say is that you would be very wise to just be yourself, for it is obvious that she’s interested. Now, I’m going to be optimistic and assume that her relationship is on the way out or she’s just poly or something, otherwise, um, ew. Unless, of course, she’s really, really hot.

10

Of course nice guys finish last. That’s just simple good manners.

11

I agree with msmith537 and guinistasia. (Wow. That’s an odd sentence. Never thought those two would say the same thing in a relationship thread!)

I’ll add that there are some women who always end up with assholes and can’t handle a relationship with a genuinely nice guy (not the “NiceGuyTM”). For whatever reason, they’re so messed up in the head that they think they don’t deserve to be treated well and any guy who doesn’t treat them like dirt must have something wrong with him. But They’re not representative of most women and you really don’t want to go out with someone with that kind of baggage anyway. Incidentally, I’ve met guys who think the same thing and always end up with bitchy, psychotic girlfriends.

12

Make sure you use the phrase “balls deep” a lot. Bitches love that shit.

13

No. Yes.

Do you think that women have some magical hex against shyness, fear of rejection, and the rest of the lovely (heavy sarcasm) experience that is dating?

Reasons women seem to be attracted to said assholes. “Nice guys” tend to not show any interest in a woman. Therefore we have NO clue that they are even there, let alone if they are interested.

Generally the ones asking us to dance, asking for our numbers, talking and flirting with us are the ones who turn out to be assholes. One thing assholes have, in abundance is CONFIDENCE (and this is as wellworn and “lame” as your questions, which I don’t think are lame at all).

Which brings us to the second part of your question. Do you REALLY think that if some guy walks up to strange chicks and says something to the effect of “GOD but you’re fat and ugly, I’m your only hope, you’d better come have sex with me now” that they would really get anywhere at all?

No, assholes don’t wear it like a sign, their assholishness only comes out after they’ve gotten tired of their “charming cool guy” act. After they’ve already wooed the woman into a relationship, or one night stand as it were, with them.

No, I can smell a player from miles away, often with just one or two words from his smarmy little mouth. Unfortunately, I have been tricked by a few of the brethren of assholes. The beer guzzling “please take care of me” couch potato.

My opinions of that time in my life. “@#$#@@#$Q!!! What was I thinking???”.

What changed my mind? Age and wisdom? Just plain experience. Oh and the love of an honest to goodness “good man”.

You don’t have to change who you are to make “getting someone” more successful. And you don’t need to, what seems to be “assholes attracting women” is nothing more than a myth.

It isn’t the assholery that attracts the women, it’s the other traits that assholes exhibit. Fun, confidence, good looks, confidence, interest in the woman, confidence,…confidence…confidence. You, (and other nice guys) only see the short term “success” that these bad boys brag on, you don’t see their long term consequences, nor how many of their supposed “conquests” drop them like hot potatoes once they figure the bad boy out.

14

I was thinking the same thing. msmith537 are you feeling okay???

:smiley:

15

::clap, clap::

I, too, agree with msmith357. As it has been predicted, I expect the flying monkeys to take me away at any time.

Listen to **CanvasShoes, ** for she is wise. Women generally want a guy with some trappings of supposed assholes–confidence, etc. If a woman really truly only wants actual asshole-type guys, she’s the kind of trainwrecky horror that you and all your bits want to stay far away from.

16

Well…

THAT sentence didn’t turn out the way it looked in my head. :slight_smile: Not meaning that no nice guys (not the Nice Guys TM, they are another story entirely) will ask a girl to dance, or for her number.

17

I would guess that it may have something to do with the fact that most people are insecure about dating and alot of dating seems to just be people trying to satiate their own insecurities. A guy who is always nice is for lack of a better word already in the bag. A guy who acts like he could care less about a woman is not, in fact if he cared at all about her he would be nice to her. So that is one possible reason from an armchair psychologist. Are you attracted to women who throw themselves at you unconditionally and forcefully? I doubt you are as much as you may think you are. Do the reverse (care so little about the person that you are a dick to them), and I guess that is what an asshole does.

Or it could be low self esteem. Who knows. Sadly in our culture we’ve created a society of rampant self hatred, perhaps that is why some women prefer the company of assholes, because they treat themselves like shit too.

But who knows how true it is or why some women do it.

18

First, your roommate is an asshole. But you probably know that already. Second, msmith is correct that being outwardly nice but doing whatever it takes to get what you want will work in the short run, but not in the long run, and not in healthy relationships. A good woman with good self-esteem will kick your sorry ass to the curb once she gets a taste of that.

Now, for your questions:

No and yes. I agree with whoever said that most guys who spout this drivel probably aren’t actually all that nice.

Women with low self-esteem will be attracted to men who treat them as badly as they think they deserve to be treated.

I can only speak for myself, but no, I’m not attracted to assholes. I once tolerated it (I don’t think I ever was attracted to it), but since I have grown up, matured, and got a lot more self-confident, I don’t put up with bad treatment any more.

Actually, what guys don’t seem to realize that all that really matters is how tall they are. The “nice guy vs. asshole” thing is just a smokescreen.

19

I understand why you might think that from little information that I’ve given you.

Now this is just offensive. I’m not asking how to get laid. I know who I am, and I will behave as my morals indicate.

You can think I’m morally bankrupt because I’m pursuing a girl engaged in a relationship, but I will also disagree with you. When the “love” is gone, it’s gone. Just because someone is not financially independent enough to kick his or her significant other to the curb doesn’t mean he/she doesn’t deserve to be treated like he/she is attractive and desirable to the opposite sex.

For those who really seem to want or need more information regarding my personal life, I am not interested in getting laid prematurely. I am not interested in ruining a good relationship, because from what I can tell, this isn’t a good relationship. Having been through a negative relationship that I couldn’t immediately separate myself from, I do understand what the girl I am pursuing is going through.

I’m not saying my motives are necessarily pure either, but I’m not going out of my way to hurt anyone.

Thanks to those who have responded without premature judgement to this thread.

20

I’ve written in generalities about this subject many times before. So THIS time, I won’t get into the whole “Why do women like assholes” and “Why do women see me only as a fharmless asexual friend” debate.

I will merely give some practical advice from a now-married guy who used to ask himself all those same questions:

IF you’re in this situation:

  1. You’re in love with a wonderful woman who seems to date a lot of assholes.
  2. Lucky you, you get to have lunch with her and lend a sympathetic ear when she weeps about how the aforementioned assholes treat her
  3. You keep thinking if you stay around her, having the occasional lunch, dinner or outing together, she’ll sudddenly realize that YOU are the one for her

IF that describes you, my advice is simple: Stop it. Cut her out of your life, and move on. You’re giving yopurself ulcers, and there’s never going to be any payoff for you.

To use a crude analogy: Hanging out with a woman who doesn’t feel any passion for you, in hopes that she’ll suddenly change her mind, is like getting season tickets for the Yankees and sitting in the front row every night, hoping Joe Torre will notice you and put YOU in the game. The odds of either thing happening are about the same.

Now, if you understand and accept that you’re never going to play for the Yankees, and are content simply to sit in your seat and enjoy watching the game, fine! Keep going to the games. But if all you do at the game is sit there and mope, wishing it was YOU at shortstop instead of that asshole Derek Jeter… then quit going to the games. It’s ridiculous to spend time and money doing something that makes you miserable.

In the same way, if you really enjoy the company of your Unrequited Love Queen, by al means, continue to spend time with her. But do NOT spend time with her if you have any other agenda.