Are a significant number of women really attracted to assholes, or are males just conditioned to believe that this is true?
I suppose it could be true. I’m not. If I sense initially that the man is an ass - I’m immediately not interested. Assishness initially can include any or more than one of the following:
A. treating waitstaff like personal serfs.
B. making disparaging remarks about women - make a snotty comment about anyone’s weight and you’re history in my book.
C. throwing personal wealth around - telling me within 2.1 seconds about your Jag/Ferrari/Porsche/etc.
2) If many women are attracted to assholes, what is it about them that causes them to be attracted to men who will not treat them with respect?
Maybe they have no respect for themselves? Maybe they like the thrill? I dunno - why does it seem that a lot of men like self-absorbed, snotty women - as long, of course, as they’re a size 2?
Doper women, are you attracted to men who treat females poorly? If you once were, but grew out of it, what are your opinions about that period of your life and what made you change your taste in men?
Personally, I dated a man who was not very physically attractive, but the more I got to know him the more attractive he became until I thought he was the sexiest man alive because he was sweet and intelligent. I have also had the opposite experience, where I have found a really hot guy and over a month or so it became more and more like talking to a brick wall. He was rude and didn’t know about anything except cars, and even though he looked like Heath Ledger he became less and less attractive the more I knew him.
Nice guys aren’t avoided, and assholes aren’t actively searched out by most women. It just kind of happens that you have to sift through a lot of assholes to find your nice guy.
That’s totally true and a good point. I understand shyness, I’m shy myself, but you have to at least put yourself out there and assholes are a lot more likely to do this than non-assholes. Also, we’re not mind readers. If a guy is being nice to me, or helping me with a problem, or pays for my dinner, I don’t know if it’s supposed to be a romantic or a friendship situation, so I tend to err on the side of caution and treat them like a friend (unless I’m totally gaga, but it usually takes a number of interactions before I start to think about being gaga). This leads many guys to think that you’re playing them and taking advantage of their nice-guyness, when in reality, I probably didn’t even know why the guy was interested in me. (Yeah, I should know better, all guys are just after the snatch. I have too high an expectation of people.) By being forceful enough to say “do you want to go out?” you can take away that ambiguity.
Also a lot of “nice guys” (again, not the really nice guys but the whiny losers who constantly complain about nice guys finishing last–a real man wouldn’t treat women like a competition) tend to put women on a pedestal while at the same time treating us like quarry. Women think more or less exactly like men. We’re not aliens, and we’re not goddesses. A lot of men treat all girls like we’re just an object, and that’s especially true of two sets of men: 1. the “asshole” rich guys with Porsches who flash their money, and 2. the basement-dwelling role-game-playing “nice guys” who’ve never seen a naked girl outside of an .avi file. Want to “get a girl”? The first thing you have to do is take the phrase “get a girl” out of your vocabulary. I am a human being, an equal to you, and would like to be related to as such.
As to the OP’s specific situation, it seems fucked up on a lot of levels. Even though it seems like she’s being abused (her boyfriend “allows” her to go out with friends?), you don’t go after people already in relationships. That’s a #1 way to be an asshole. Do you care about this girl on any level other than wanting to score with her, like do you care that she may be getting abused? If not, leave her alone. If so, be a friend to her, but don’t even think about romance until she is out of the relationship.
Nah, it’s just that there are a lot of women who are assholes themselves or had asshole fathers. They want to accessorize to their predisposition or they look for a surrogate asshole to fill the void. Birds of a Feather, and all that.
I’m going to give a qualified agreement to this, based on the facts that:
there was a girl;
who treated me like a friend;
who was going out with someone else;
who I waited to notice me for months;
who is moving in to the house we bought together tomorrow, almost 3 years after we started going out.
This last, miraculous, development occured because I followed astorian’s advice.
She started going out with the other guy two weeks before he left on a long-anticipated 6-month secondment to Hong Kong. Over the next few months we became close because we were near neighbours and hung out together a lot. And so my feelings developed. And because I’m not as inscrutable as I’d sometimes like to think, she cottoned on. She confronted me. I admitted I had these feelings but that I knew they were inappropriate. So we agreed to stay friends - but of course, my feelings didn’t go away. We didn’t stop hanging out together either. There were some times when I’d swear she was interested, and others when I realised I was being foolish.
Two months later, after a talking-to by a friend, and because I’d been in this situation before when younger and I knew it sucked, I decided to move on. I wouldn’t be rude, but I’d hang out with her less, look elsewhere for female companionship and get past this. In fact, I did handle it a bit crudely. I’d invited her to a party I’d been asked to on Saturday. I emailed and said that on reflection, it was rude of me to assume I could just bring people when I myself didn’t know the host that well, so best if she didn’t come. This took her aback and offended her a little. We met up on Friday for drinks and, to my great surprise, she asked me out. After a stunned pause (which was long enough for her to grab her bag and prepare to flee the bar) I said yes.
The reason she asked me out was because my less than subtle distancing of myself from her had forced her to make a decision - did she want me in her life or did she not? Being constantly available had meant that she’d never had to think about how much she liked me or in what way. As soon as it appeared that I might not always be available, she’d realised that she wanted me.
So absolutely no guarantees, but astorian is right - you can’t stay in this position forever, so make a break and see what happens. Worst case scenario, you have to get over her without seeing her all the time, which is by far the easiest way.
Dude, the fact that the girl is in a messed up relationship is even more reason to stay away. It’s not a healthy situation. The last thing she needs is someone trying to be a Knight in Shining Armor.
Just wanted to point out how absolutely true this (probably) is. Of course we don’t know all the specifics; just enough to make me really, really hope that you’re not setting yourself up for a whole lot of hassle and heartbreak, Mr. Krebbs.
I do appreciate the concern a few of you have shown for myself and the woman involved in this situation. I’d rather not devulge too many specifics here, but suffice it to say that the attraction is mutual and I intend to play this whole thing by ear as much as possible. I’m not opposed to maintaining a friendly relationship for a while, though I suspect it will prove difficult.
Guinastasia, you may well be right in that I’m trying to play the “knight in shining armor.” I don’t know what else to do in this situation and nor do I see how it could cause problems for her if I were doing so. Would you mind clarifying what your definition of a knight in shining armor is, and why one would be a negative for her?
I prefer the more poetic “Up to yer nuts in a lady’s guts.”
In all seriousness, I’ve been a nice guy all my life and I’ve scored more than Wayne Gretzky playing against the Special Olympics All-Stars. So it’s simply not true that nice guys must necessarily finish last. I invariably treated women like gold, never two-timed anyone, was always a perfect gentleman.
However, while I am a nice guy, I started getting the attention of the ladies when I stopped being a whiny little pussy (the transition was around 20 years of age) and started asking women out and actually making moves on them. In my experience a lot of guys who SAY they’re nice guys are in fact no nicer than anyone else, but when they say they’re “nice” they mean they’re shy and don’t make a move and sit around whining. They want to be friends for eight months and then maybe ask for a kiss, while the woman was kind of hoping for a guy she could screw.
Actually it would end up being more of a negative for you. Women do this too, they get involved with “fixer-uppers” and think “I can change him” – one of the saddest and least true phrases in the English language. No person, man or women, can change another person who does not want to change themselves. The F-ed up person will continue with their F-ed up ways, causing you untold angst and quite possibly heartbreak, and ultimately, wasted time you could have spent with someone who had their shit together.
Just remember, a person that will cheat with you will also cheat on you. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, lost an old friend, laughed my ass off when he cheated on her too.
Hallelujah. Even “modern” women are often/sometimes scared to ask a guy out, figuring that guys always ask out the women they’re interested in and thus if they’re not asking, they’re not interested. Guin and others mentioned friend-things that some guys trying to be nice do; I’ve seen this described as being a “Loft-Builder Guy.” In other words, some guys trying to attract a woman will do totally non-date-like, non-romantic things to attract her, like put up her loft or help her out in other friend ways. All that does is show the woman that you’re helpful, friendly, and handy - and totally not interested in dating her. There’s a slim chance that you might get her this way but that’s it.
Basically, trying to rescue her from a bad relationship, hoping that it will lead to a new relationship with her. It’s a bad idea because right now, the last thing she needs is to get into another relationship. She’s probably not in a healthy state of mind, and rebound romances often don’t last.
If you really are this woman’s friend, be there for her, but don’t try to save her, or woo her. Just stay out of it. Be a good friend, listen, try to help, (like you would ANY FRIEND), but don’t try to sweep her away from the Bad Guy.
And then, eventually, if she does leave this guy, after enough time (and you’ll know when it’s right), then perhaps let her know you’re interested. But not right now.
Its so hard to exactly what you have to do, man to get her. I was in a similar situation myself once, but that fell apart due to the fact that it had to become a long-distance relationship. It was definitely worth it though.
But don’t be an asshole to her. Treating her like shit is only likely to work with a small percentage of girls, and that is only if they like them alot to begin with. Lets put it in mathematical terms. Unless the chick is in love with you already, she won’t put up with shit. So it makes it completely pointless. The only time a girl will put up with being treated like shit is when she has a reason to believe that its not true. Some girls are more willing to believe than others, and some assholes don’t reveal their true sides until its too late for the girl.
Secondly, there’s the rub. Either she likes you or she doesn’t. A friend of mine once told me that it is pointless what we do when we worry about pickup lines. Not pickup lines per-se, but just approaching new people. Imagine if someone you really liked came up to you and was so embarrassed that they could hardly speak or said something stupid. Would you care? Of course not, you’d be happy that they approached you. Well then why do we get bent out of shape. The point is that if she does like you then that’s cool. If she doesn’t like you then you’re screwed. You won’t make her happy by being a dick.
On the other hand, some girls do like guys that aren’t such pussies. Showing a little assertiveness isn’t bad, but the way you do it is crucial. What Ferret Herder makes a lot of sense too. Its hard exactly for me to know how to get this across, but you have to let her know that you are interested. I can’t tell you how to do this. You just have to get a feel for it. Having a lot of female friends doesn’t help either. I had only female friends last summer and it really killed my abilities to hit on girls. I don’t know why. You obviously want to make contact with her body. One good way is sitting down on a couch. Let your leg touch hers, and maybe touch her somewhere as a gesture in conversation. People like it if they like you.
You know these guys that have no respect for women? The ones that use phrases like “balls deep” etc? I have no respect for these guys. You have to actually appreciate them, despite the fact that you are forward. I believe it was Don Juan that said that he loved all women. Well, that was his secret. He just loved women and wasn’t afraid to go after them. But you don’t want to be one of the guys who uses the word “hatefuck”. Man that must be a sad world.
Its a seriously funny read from a jaded viewpoint. The theory is that women only love assholes and nice guys end up being their intellectual partners in the relationship, but since they aren’t really their boyfriends, they are intellectual whores.
Getting back to this for a second, I think I can see where a lot of people–especially younger people–might get this impression. Being assertive is what’ll really make or break you as far as getting girls goes, and while there is a difference between being assertive and being an asshole, a lot of people your age either haven’t sussed that out or don’t know how to tell the difference.
I do think it’s telling that the “Why do women always like assholes” tends to come pretty much from younger guys. It’d be surprising to hear it from anyone in their late 20s or 30s.
Or what they mean by “nice” is that they buy stuff for girls and aren’t wife beaters. That isn’t a quality. It’s something you DO, not something you are. It’s something (I hope) that most good decent men can say, that is, “I don’t beat women”.
But you’ve nailed it when you describe just simply starting to ask women out. We too are shy and afraid of rejection. So the girl who is not talking to you or jumping your bones or whatever, it doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t notice you, it could merely mean that she too is too afraid to make a move.
Asshole + Assertive = Asshole
Asshole + Timid = Nice Guy[sup]TM[/sup]
Non-Asshole + Assertive = The good guy who gets the ladies too
Non-Asshole + Timid = Your genuinely nice, but lonely, friend
The last two could use better labels, but the idea is there. We sort of think that AHs get women like mad, but only the assertive ones do. The timid ones are labeled as NGs instead and tend to be grouped with the non-AHs.
The reality is that the nice, assertive guy is going to have more luck than the asshole, or will at least have better relationships overall.
I’m sorry, but I can’t help but disagree with this statement. I don’t buy the “once a cheater, always a cheater” notion, either.
I once cheated on a girl. This is not something that I am at all proud of, and I didn’t actually have sex with someone other than the girl I was seeing, but I did come close.
I realize that I am basing this only on my previous experience, but I do think that an individual can make a mistake given certain circumstances that otherwise wouldn’t be repeated. In my particular situation, I had moved in with my girlfriend too early, our finances had become intertwined and I eventually realized that I wanted out. I hated going home and although I was able to ward off advances from other women for a long while, I eventually gave in. Again, not something I’m proud of, but if I had had any desire to maintain my current relationship (rather than get the hell out whenever the opportunity presented itself), I would not have cheated. I also don’t think that I am more likely to cheat again if given the opportunity; I am, however, less likely to move in with a girlfriend prematurely.
I do agree with this statement, but this brings to mind a good question. When I think of “rebound romances,” I think of an individual who is still hurting from a recently ended relationship that becomes involved with someone else to get over the previous relationship (it’s irrelevant whether this is done intentionally or not). However, if one gets over her current relationship before breaking it off and proceeds to initiate another relationship shortly after finally ending the previous one, is the new relationship still the dreaded rebound romance?
