Why does it always have to be about white supremacy? Is there a lack of difference of opinion on other important issues worth discussing rather than trying to avoid through safe spaces? I have far greater difference of opinion with right wing politics than (I hope) any persons of color would possibly ever find with me. I have some objections to left wing ideology as well. Does that make me ideologically adjacent with white supremacy? It sure seems like that’s a conclusion some people are inclined to make.
Well, in the case of Black-centered safe spaces in American universities…
Funny that you took great pains to point out that American universities was what this was all about, previously, now you’re wondering why it has to be about that…
Once again - “avoiding discussion” is your bullshit strawman, not the actual reason for the safe spaces under discussion.
Do you have enough wood for that cross you’re so obviously constructing? I think there’s still some bits left over from the “avoidance” scarecrow you built.
You snipped that out of context. I was explaining that the term “safe space” as it applies to universities has always to me meant wanting to avoid coming into contact with people you disagree with. I specifically mentioned the difference between that and a physical threat in the very paragraph that quoted from.
If you are saying that university students only use that term to apply to some sort of refuge from people that are trying to kill them then that is a shifting of the term to me.
The caron is right there.
Yes, you’re repeating the bit I said was bullshit.
No, I’m not saying that. But there are other reasons than “avoid being murdered” and “merely not hear ideas”, as has already been mentioned in this thread. So you can drop the false dilemma.
What extant threat are black students (or any students for that matter) in American Universities facing that requires the use of safe spaces?
No, because I’m not describing threats of violence and discrimination. Those are illegal, and thus are not supposed to be allowed in society as a whole. For something to be a safe space, it must go further than that.
A safe space is a place that protects people from being attacked with words. This includes bigotry, but it also includes personal attacks. Exactly where the lines are drawn differs. This board is very high on the personal attacks, but, IMHO, could do better on the bigotry. But these are the rules the community has decided to have.
When people talk about safe spaces not allowing different ideas, you have to look at what ideas they are talking about. And it always boils down to ideas that are seen to attack others, either directly, or because they are bigoted. Any other different ideas are perfectly allowed, just like they are here.
Sure, there may also be rules against heated argument. But it’s not like disagreement is not allowed. That’s just a claim made by those against safe spaces. They want to associate them with echo chambers. But the difference in an echo chamber is that you essentially never leave. A safe space inherently involves the idea that you come into it and exit it. So the idea that you are not exposed to other ideas, even ones the safe space may not allow, is ridiculous.
Safe spaces are a place of respite. It’s a place where you can go to escape the harsh realities of the wider world for a little bit. And, as such, we all have them. We have our homes. We have our private get-togethers. We may have clubs. These spaces of respite are necessary. These places to come together with likeminded people are necessary.
It’s only when the issue is about bigotry that suddenly it’s harmful and makes people fragile. And it’s telling that it’s almost always people from the majority telling people from a minority how they have to do things.
The same people who yell about freedom of speech in these types of issues seem to forget about freedom of assembly and freedom of association. The same people who act like bullying makes you tougher get mad if they perceive anyone bullying them.
There are few spaces on God’s Earth safer for black Americans (or people of any race and nationality) than the campus of an American university.
I don’t know what that is or what the relevance is. The comment you used makes no sense stripped of context, especially when the context referred directly to the possibility of protection from a physical threat and which I said I would back.
You either accidentally or purposefully snipped that one part in order to make it seem that I was avoiding or minimising the possibility of actual physical harm or threat. If it were by accident I’m sure you’ll be happy to correct it.
What part of it is bullshit? you don’t think that was really my experience of the use of that term?
Feel free to explore the excluded middle with Smapti.
Apparently none that you wouldn’t just pooh-pooh as “different ideas”…
Safe from White supremacy? Not a damn - as was shown earlier in this thread.
Is this in reference to the “police lives matter” sticker on that kid’s laptop?
It’s the down-arrow symbol at the top-right of every quoted post.
The “relevance” is that in Discourse, no properly quoted post is “free from context”, so any appeal to “snipping” is just evasive tactics.
No, I quoted just the part that I was saying was bullshit all in-and-of-itself, completely independent of “physical” anything.
But by all means, continue to pursue this pointless “removed context” sideline that has nothing to do with my point. I’m just not going to respond to it after this post.
The bit where the milquetoast “people you disagree with” has anything to do with anything. Racists and MAGATs and fascists are not “people you disagree with”. Which is why I called it softballing bullshit.
Naah, I’m good, my fallacy bingo card is all full already, thanks to you.
Yes.
I would wager there are very few places you see such stickers less than you do in an American university. Out here in red America that shit is on billboards, I’d say a college campus is probably one of the least likely places to see such a thing and probably one of the most likely places where display of such a thing would get called out and denounced (it would be highly likely to be passively accepted or celebrated in much of the rest of the country.)
Every high school I have ever been associated with had one. I think they are probably more common in the South.
Then you have no problem with me selectively quoting you like this and stating that I agree with it?
No problem with me excising the context that completely changes the meaning? no problem with me expecting people to expand the quote every time just in case someone is playing fast and loose?
But that’s just it. It wasn’t a point made in-and-of itself was it? It was part of a wider point that, taken as a whole, completely negates your interpretation. Context is everything.
Wrong on a million levels. I very much do disagree with all of those groups, what on earth makes you think that I don’t?
My view of Bill Maher remains unchanged by this, which is:
Sometimes Bill Maher is astute and on point. Sometimes Bill Maher is spectacularly wrong. But Bill Maher is never not an asshole.
Mine did, and I was north of the Mason-Dixon. I went because it wasn’t clear what the ceremony was and I thought it was part of the graduation ceremony (which was afterwards). Really wish I hadn’t.
That other parts of America are shittier doesn’t mean it’s not oppressive to see them on campus.
Also, I very much doubt you’d see too many of them in Compton or Castleberry Hill, or have them passively accepted there…so you’re being a bit particular on what you consider the “rest of America” to be.
Every HS in the district I grew up in (Southwest Virginia) and every HS in the district in VA I live in now (where I was on the school board one term many years ago) has a baccalaureate service. I’ve seen them routinely mentioned when speaking with Midwesterners and Southerners, I don’t have any data one way or another but in the personal (and small versus the entire country) dataset, I actually don’t know of a single High School that doesn’t have one.
Note that the Baccalaureate Service is listed as something the Freedom From Religion Foundation generally “takes a look at” to make sure school districts aren’t violating the law. The school districts can mention the service is going on, but they cannot organize it, fund it, or administratively support it in any way. As an adult I’ve always been an atheist, but I was still a believer when I went through mine, and as a High School kid in rural Virginia I actually had no perception that it wasn’t part of the official graduation, and no idea it was optional. I’m guessing most religious kids are in a similar boat, it isn’t “optional” because your parents are sending you to it, and they don’t mention it’s optional because you don’t have the option.
What part of me saying I’m not responding to the snipping sidetrack did you miss?
Not the point, and you know it. “Pol Pot was a guy who disliked academics” carries as much truth value as calling those people “people you disagree with”. In the sense that it is factually accurate yet so very much less than the whole truth as to be irrelevant.
I mean Compton is quasi-gentrified at this point, I actually would wager a lot of money you could drive around Compton with a Blue Lives Matter sticker on your car and face little issue. I know you aren’t American but a lot of times the public perception of certain “high crime” black areas is widely out of date with reality. People were still talking about Harlem as being a black ghetto in pop culture for a good 25 years after it fully gentrified. There are actually worse areas of South LA now, by a good measure than Compton. But frankly even some genuinely really rough minority neighborhoods in the United States you’re incredibly unlikely to be fucked with just for displaying a sticker or t-shirt, unless you’ve taken it to some really extreme level.
Has that happened in the last 5 years? Because the last time I had reason to look into it, it was still largely working class and with a >25% population in poverty.
And I wasn’t pointing to Compton for being high crime - the accompanying Atlanta neighbourhood I mentioned isn’t AFAIK - merely a “Black” neighbourhood (even though it’s a plurality not majority).
And I wasn’t saying anything about anyone being “fucked up”, just such displays not being universally meekly tolerated.