Racial segregation at universities--a growing, and legitimate trend?

I’m not particularly interested in people who object to the mere existence of safe spaces. I think we’re united in our disagreement with them. I’m more concerned with just how safe a safe space should be.

It seems to me that some posters in this thread are using definitions of ‘disruption’ and ‘harassment’ which are so broad that they create great scope for good faith complaints about things which we might otherwise reasonably expect students to ignore.

For example, a student with family in Afghanistan might, in good faith, be offended by someone with a Joe Biden sticker on their laptop, and consider such an overt political statement to be an unnecessary provocation. After all, Biden’s actions vis à vis Afghanistan were, to put it mildly, highly controversial. And the “offending” student could always have erred on the side of caution and chosen not to make a political statement in a safe space. Is that too much to ask? If so, why? On what grounds would you say the offended student was wrong to interpret the other’s choice to display the sticker as a hostile act, as just another way of saying “I don’t care about the people of Afghanistan”? Should colleges ban Biden stickers if they make a student feel unsafe in a safe space?

It seems to me that narrowing the definitions of disruption and harassment, and setting up safe spaces with a common understanding that students should be expected to ignore political statements which fall within the Overton window of acceptable discourse would actually do more to preserve safe spaces than defining concepts like disruption and harassment forever downwards. If the definitions of those terms become too broad then the safe spaces themselves might collapse under their own weight.

I’m not Novelty_Bobble but the counter to your excellent argument is that there are examples of events being either cancelled or attempts to prevent them from being held on university campuses because the guest speakers hold views that some find offensive. In such instances the “safe space” appears to be the entire campus rather than some narrowly defined events sponsored by a college society.

Now, I’m not suggesting that students don’t have a right to criticize the events or speakers. What they shouldn’t do is demand that the entire college campus is a “safe space” from ideas and speech they don’t like.

Using your two examples of LGB and DICCU societies, two groups holding opposing views can coexists without one demanding the other be prohibited in the common space of the college campus.

That’s pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

Individual groups are free to organise their memberships however they choose (though I reflexively dislike the idea of discriminatory membership rules by identity, I’d rather they were organised via interest) and trespassing on those groups without invite seems like willful rudeness.

A birdwatching society is free to hire out a room for their own members and anyone wandering in, without a membership, wearing a t-shirt saying “kill all magpies” would rightly be turfed out on their arse. What wouldn’t be right would be for the same group to seek kicking a similar person off campus if they merely sat on the next table in the cafeteria.

My concern really stems from my experience of how the concept of university “safe spaces” is an ever-expanding remit that seeks to exclude people with differing opinions even from shared spaces and the campus itself.

I remain convinced that no-one on this thread actually thinks that “safe spaces” only applies to areas designed to protect from threats physical harm.

If Stanislaus is UK-based (and incidentally I grew up in County Durham in the 80’s and 90’s) then I’d be interested in their thoughts on how the they think the term “safe space” is now used and whether it is expanding in definition.

It would be helpful to look at some actual definitions of safe spaces and their actual boundaries. So much of this is people imagining what those definitions could be and condemning them for that.

For example, D’anconia offered an absurd link where a couple of provocateurs acted like assholes in a multicultural center, and were specifically told, because of their intentional provocation, “we’re not kicking you out, we’re asking you to leave.” And that was characterized as “White students ‘kicked out’ of diversity space.”

So if this thread is now about safe spaces and not about the OP, maybe we don’t go to absurdities like that, but should instead examine actual instances of places that bill themselves as safe spaces.

It seems there’s a decent bit of talking past each other going on, IMO. The conservative criticism of safe spaces generally follows two tracks with varying ranges of validity/dishonesty involved.

Track 1: Safe spaces create “weak people”. - So let’s say a Black American heritage group holds a gathering in some portion of a university, and designates it a safe space for black students. The conservative argument might be that there are no such spaces in society at large, so it is not properly preparing black students for the real world. This rings fairly hollow, college isn’t supposed to exactly mimic society outside college, and giving semi-private access to gathering places on campus is not unusual. Various campus clubs can usually book rooms, meeting halls etc, and while it may be a public facility, they have some right to regulate who can come in. Most of these groups won’t explicitly say “no whites allowed”, because they may not actually mind white people there (as long as they aren’t harassing/disruptive), but also because if it’s a public university allowing a group to discriminate racially might fall afoul of the law. In many examples like this, conservative media tend to exaggerate what is going on, paint a negative/distortionary picture etc, when really, it’s usually just a gathering of people who want some level of insulation from out group harassment. Most college campuses have plenty of places where white supremacists can confront black people to their heart’s content, and having some areas be temporarily managed by a student group that has rules against that sort of thing, probably is not a constitutional violation nor is it making “weak people.”

I intend to represent for both of these tracks a “bullshit” conservative example, and then an example that’s more nuanced, but in this one I really don’t have a great example of a nuance non-bullshit one that I know is real, so I will work with a hypothetical. Imagine a female law school student who says she doesn’t want to participate in moot courts with male students, because she finds men hostile, aggressive and triggering. I would actually say that isn’t something you should generally allow or want to see. There is no option to opt-out of dealing with male opposing counsel in an actual legal career, so it is a disservice to a female law student with such hangups to not be pushed to overcome them, if she can’t it will be very difficult for her to function as a lawyer in the real world. It’s also an example of where maybe you should refer someone to therapy also to overcome an individualized emotional issue that is a barrier to their specific career path.

Track 2 - Safe spaces are unconstitutional because they privatize public spaces - This argument at least has the veneer of respectability because it is generally true, in a college environment that you do not lose your First Amendment rights at the “school house door.” A student cafeteria open to all for example, would have very little legal leg to stand on if it banned students from wearing Thin Blue Line or Back the Blue merchandise. It should be noted that in many examples that right wing media highlight, no university official is actually prohibiting people from doing things like this. Instead, other students are confronting the conservatives and yelling at them. You have a first amendment right to expression, broadly, on campus, you do not have any constitutional right that immunizes you from being criticized or hollered at over your expression. However I’ll not that examples like an LGBT club in the student union bar, as mentioned above, probably would pass constitutional muster because it’s not unconstitutional to offer groups and clubs temporary private control over public assets. For example, the local public library here has meeting rooms, sometimes they are rented out to businesses, sometimes the chess club uses them etc. While they are being used, the people operating those meetings have broad rights to decide who can attend and who has to leave. As long as equal access is offered to groups, there probably isn’t an issue. So if an LGBT group is allowed to book private time in a student union bar, the only real constitutional issue is if the school would decline to allow the College Republican Club, for example, the same opportunity.

Now an example where conservatives do have an argument goes back to the University of Missouri / Mizzou protests. In that incident protesters looking to see the university administration driven out over mishandling racial issues, harassed, assaulted and intimidated a student journalist. They said that he had “no right to be there because reporters create an unsafe space for people of color protesting.” I’m sorry, but absolutely not. You are behaving in public and a reporter has an intrinsic right to report on your behavior. You have no right to assault him or knock his camera out of his hand, that honestly isn’t even controversial. The desire for safe space in that context has no compelling justification.

At the end of the day one of the core issues I think a lot of people have with looking at this issue is they assume the “other side” never has a valid claim. There are actually some valid conservative or even just civil society complaints about the specific execution of safe space policy / behavior in some contexts. Now the “weight” of discourse out there in the media and the public, is for every legitimate beef, there’s like 20,000 illegitimate Joe Rogan / Bill Maher crybaby conservative complaints. It is fairly easy to just dismiss all such complaints as the same, but like a lot of issues the right wing raises–there is usual a kernel of a real argument, usually wrapped with a lot of bullshit. Such things tend to have more power, and I think the political left undermines itself by not trying to at times push back on the kernel of legitimate truth to some of these issues.

I don’t have any strong thoughts. At least half the time I see it being used, and probably the majority, it’s being used mockingly by right-wingers in a way that makes it clear they don’t really understand the concept. I don’t really have a clear idea of how it’s being used in universities and whether it’s expanding - I’ve certainly seen scare stories to the effect that students are demanding no-one who disagrees with them is allowed to set foot on campus, but they (the stories, not the students) are usually so hysterical that it’s impossible to know how real the problem actually is. FWIW, I’m pretty sure no one actually used the term “safe space” to refer to the LGB society at the time, so the definition has expanded in the sense that it’s come into existence. I’m sure a process of trial and error in nailing that definition down is only natural.

In general I think it’s kind of weird that so much attention is being paid to student politics. A whole lot of nonsense went on in my time, some of it principled, some of it dumb, some of it both. The idea that it would be fit for national news would have shocked us all. But there’s a market for what are essentially scare stories about the “snowflake” “woke” generation now and I’m not sure that says anything very healthy about the people buying them.

Which is completely irrelevant. The main reason why is that the SDMB is privately owned. In the public sphere the behavior is governed by a different and much better set of standards. One of those standards is that people are individuals and not defined by their so-called set of victim hood intersections and that individuals have very strong rights to liberty.

Right. A private enterprise such as the SDMB can create a safe space, however they define it. A state school has a a lot less leeway.

So it’s OK for privately owned colleges to have safe spaces then, right?

I believe privately owned institutions have a lot more freedom to exclude and segregate. Whether it is moral, wise, or intellectually consistent can be debated.

Yup. Who says otherwise? Please don’t offer a misleading cite this time.

You can do your own research.

I 100% can, which is why I realized how terrible your research was. If you’re implying that similar research would beget similar results, I feel pretty comfortable assuming that your implication is, here, similarly nonsense.

I am really uncomfortable with the idea of a society where only groups organized and powerful enough to pay to secure place can reliably assemble in peace. It seems like the freedom to assemble isn’t really freedom if it’s only available to those that can pay.

And this is where the rubber meets the road. If a young person from a minority group wants an education free of racial harassment, they have to go to an expensive private school, because publicly offered education must allow harassers free reign to spew racially motivated hatred.

If that’s what the 1st Amendment means, the 1st Amendment sucks. It’s just another tool for the powerful to fuck the powerless, and I’d be just fine with ditching that nonsense.

You can reserve meeting rooms and such on campus for free if you’re a student, and even low cost public schools have those. You can do the same at local libraries, usually for a fee, but not an onerous one.

It doesn’t take much power or wealth to reserve a room.

Well, that’s not what the 1st amendment means. Not at all. And whatever concept you would replace an individual’s inherent right to express themselves with would objectively suck more.

Not what I’m being told here. I’m being told that if you’re one of the poors, and go to a public school, every bigot in the school is constitutionally protected from having his bigotry silenced. If a minority student wants a space free of bigotry, they have to close themselves off in a separate room from everyone else. And that’s apparently OK, because it’s free.

So if you want a place to chill between classes where nobody is going to call you “ngger" or “towel head” or "fggot” or whistle at you, to unwind from a day of being called “ngger" or “towel head” or "fggot” or being whistled at, you need to reserve a room for that time and day before hand? Wouldn’t it be easier if those spaces just…existed already?

And just to be clear, the people who wanted to make sure that women have a safe space to pee without the threat of possibly being within the proximity of another woman who looks exactly like her but might have a penis, those people are for these safe spaces on campus too right?

We’re talking about universities here. Which universities introduced safe spaces so students could avoid being called racial epitaphs in common spaces like the student hall or the dining area? Don’t most universities have rules against this kind of harassment on campus?