Holy crap, dude, missed this post in my early morning stupor. How the hell are ya?
Our friend can build whatever kind of man he wants to deal with my point of view. He can misrepresent my views, call me a precious flower, or otherwise not respond substantively to anything I say. That is entirely up to him, and I can’t really change that. I am trying to talk with him in good faith.
Partial survival through partial dna transfer eh? It’s an interesting idea I guess, but it kind of ignores real selfish parents who make their kids lives a living hell.
Also it ties definitions of personhood, for which the continuation of would be necessary for most people’s ideas of survival, into the purely chemical. It ignores the ‘ghost in the machine’, the spark, soul, the mental processes, ideas, experiences, etc. that define someone’s personality.
I suppose you could make the argument that a parent could pass on memes to their kid giving extended life to bits of their own mind but memes can be an unreliable transfer method.
I’m theistic agnostic Taoist grandson of a religious conservative creationist 7th day Adventist.
Even if you opt for a purely chemical definition of personhood genetic transfer is horrible. If you’re male you’ll 5% guaranteed not to transfer, short of mitochondrial difficulties with the mother. Then an average 50% loss with each generation. -+5% depending on gender line.
Sorry if this is too dry for the pit.
What he has to say appears little different than what recovering objectivists on the boards here have already said many times. The difference is, they are typically both more articulate and self-reflective. I though am perhaps least among them, I am happy to explain the seductive appeal of objectivism and why most people who are attracted to it in youth ultimately outgrow it. I maintain that the people who really do care about ideas for their own sakes ultimately abandon a Randian crutch. But I could be wrong.
Since you mention it, I had better put in my honest day’s work for my honest day’s pay, too. But I keep coming back to this thread like a canker sore in my mouth.
To late for edit but I’d like to add:
I thinkRover’s problem is he takes a positive idea of hope “you can improve your life through planning, intelligent decision making, education and hard work. You’re not doomed to what you have now” too far ignoring real life shit sandwiches people are handed plus people aren’t perfect machines. To err is human, and some level of error is part of everyone’s life. No one can foresee every problem or think every possible thing out perfectly.
He then beats people over the head for not being tax lawyers, and than pats himself on the back.
Plus most of his “advice” hinges on practical time travel “oh well I’ll just go back in time and tell myself to be a tax lawyer”.
I’d like to believe he’s doing it as a form of “tough love”, but if so he has terrible amazingly bad EQ, which leads to the other interpretation.
olives, I’m really impressed with your responses here. The honesty and vulnerability you are willing to express are very touching.
If I may, it seems to me that you might benefit if you were to reconsider the label “conscience” that you have applied to the types of thinking you have mentioned. I’ve found, for myself, that idenitfying so strongly with such unhelpful thought patterns is inaccurate and counterproductive (and I gather that you are more than beginning to realize this for yourself anyway).
It pains me to think that you have lost any sleep over this. I get it, though. I’ve been having dreams about fighting zombies.
On a more and less personal note: this thread is amazing. On the surface, it’s just the kind of thread that I know better than to let myself get sucked into, but do anyway out of boredom and laziness. However, there are a few gems buried in all the shit this thread has generated, and plenty of opportunities to enjoy catharsis, giddy schadenfreude, and irony.
This game has gone further than others of its ilk that I’ve seen, but I doubt that it will hold my interest beyond this point. I think **Rand ** just doesn’t have the goods.
If anyone needs me, I’ll be over in Housewares.
Not to sound too “Who Moved My Cheese”-y, but while shit happens and we all make mistakes, you still need to take control over your situation to the extent you can. Saying “find a job that less than 2000 people are qualified for” is flippant and unhelpful. “try to differentiate yourself by developing specialized skills” is a bit more constructive.
Also an atheist. Interesting. Someone did a good job imparting feelings of guilt on you. Your notion that most people think they would be worse off if everyone got what they deserved is like a seculaer concept of original sin or something.
Look, I was responding to someone’s post saying that it’s good for me that my parents weren’t as selfish as I am or they wouldn’t have fed me. So let’s sick to that. Open a G thread if ypou want to explore the outer boundaries of one’s self-interest.
A child is basically a little half-me that will live longer than I do and can create other people taht are also part-me. So, by feeding my child, I’m giving nore me to the world. That’s pretty selfish–“I’m so awesome that the world needs more of me.” I have one child BTW.
Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it.
The next time that part of you reares its ugly head, go find a messageboard and become a self-aggrandizing ass–it’ll do wonders. But there’s a strange double-back effect where you may get flack for (and start to feel bad about) possibility taking it too far, but you just have to keep on trucking and push on through that, too.
Wow, who said that first quoted part? Wasn’t me.
Clearly we do. I don’t see an 8-page Pit thread decrying him repeatedly for lacking empathy, being an asshole, and giving useless advice, as an indication that his attempts at communicating or motivating people as being effective or productive. I don’t know what yardstick you use, but when you’ve got an entire crowd telling you that you failed in accomplishing your stated goal, I think that’s an indication that you actually failed in accomplishing your stated goal.
I saw no indication that Quartz was suddenly converted to the idea of making a career change. And Blalron never did plan to sit on his ass at home and do nothing, as clearly indicated in his thread, despite Rover’s declarations to the contrary. Oh, and not understanding that indicates that the listening end of his communication skills aren’t really working, either.
I’ll grant you it has certainly worked to piss people off. It has worked to convince people that Rover has no idea what he’s talking about. But given that these things are directly contrary to his stated goals, he is not accomplishing what he says he set out to do. IF he wants to accomplish that, what he is doing is not working. Again – what he is actually accomplishing is in direct opposition to what he said he intended to accomplish. By what definition is that “working”?
What’s your definition of working? What part of any of this has actually worked to motivate anyone?
Noooo. A jew raised with guilt? Oh, what are the odds? What are the odds?
Allow me to read your statement back to you from the record, counselor:
Please forgive my paraphrasing.
I’ll admit it, I laughed. One reason I find you so vexing is because I agree with the basic principle that people need to take responsibility for themselves, but I do think empathy can be a catalyst for helping people get to the point that they decide to change. It doesn’t always work – if empathy always worked, I would have a loving family. I’ve been understanding as hell with them and eventually you have to come to the realization that people make their own choices, and they live and die by those choices. However, it’s worked enough times, both for me and with other people, that I consider it a valuable tool. It’s also very effective at creating structure out of chaos. You can really propel people forward with a little empathy, get them out of thinking their situation is not hopeless, get them into thinking about what they can do to change things.
In essence I see us as two sides of the same coin. The first 23 years of my life my needs were irrelevant and I was treated as if I were worthless. I don’t know your story, but some people have that happen to them and think, ‘‘I’ll be damned if anyone treats me that way again.’’ I learned to protect myself, yes, but I came to a different sort of conclusion which fuels my mission: ‘‘I’ll be damned if I ever treat anyone the way I was treated.’’ Regardless of what deep inner demons fuel this desire, it works to make me a productive and happy human being.
Orr, G, thanks for the thoughtful response. (Catch-22 Orr?) I agree it’s not useful to think of the punishing thoughts as my conscience. I can’t remember where I read it, but I recall the first time I encountered the idea that when people judge others, they are revealing the same harsh standards by which they judge themselves. Some inner part of them said, for whatever reason, ‘‘I should not be this way or else I am unloveable’’ and they naturally apply that to others. I don’t know how much that resonates with anyone else, but it definitely resonated with me.
Your biographical fallacy is entirely off the mark. More importantly, it is nonresponsive.
I think that most people would be worse off because, when you get right down to it, most people are barely redeemable. Myself included. Neither feelings of guilt nor original sin have anything to do with it. My views on ethics are much more heavily influenced by Stoicism and Buddhism than by the venal brand of Judaism I was brought up with. Virtue admits no degrees. We may aspire, but most of us are probably fortunate that we do not get our just desserts in life.
I don’t have a guilty bone in my body. Just ask my mother.
Consider how often you have caused unnecessary pain to others, whether or not you feel they “deserved” it. Imagine if all of the unnecessary suffering you have caused redounded back to you. If you feel that your fragile Randian rationalizations and equivocations justify whatever pain you have caused to others in your life, then you are sadly deluded. You may find your life entirely satisfactory, so I have no pity for you. I do, however, pity the people in your life who have little choice but to share your orbit.
Which sounds like the days of the robber barons. Oh, yes, everything worked out just LOVELY then! :rolleyes:
Tell me, did the people of Louisiana “get what they deserve” from Katrina? Homeless, impoverished, left with nothing?
Sure did, they made a bad decision in choosing to live there. :rolleyes:
“Paraphrasing” my ass. I contend that what I said is more like your second quote tyan your first. Since you approved of the secomd quote, I wiollo enter your name onto the official RR fan club roster.
Also, your post nicely illustrates the misinterpretation I’ve been complaining about.
So A does not equal A when it is not convenient for you?
You said it. You own it.