Okay, maybe we need to discuss what music is. Yes there is a dictionary definition but IMHO all the things Wally mentioned are musical instruments. Even banging two sticks together is a form of music. Weather or not it’s GOOD music should be left to the individual to decide.
Many people cannot stand opera. I like it. My folks don’t think that heavy metal vomit music is music but I do. I know people who cringe at country but that doesn’t mean it isn’t music. Just means it’s a form of musical expression that you don’t like.
Ok, MaxTorque and Wally, what makes music music? If a genre doesn’t hold up to all of your standards is it then not music? Or is music something that doesn’t offend your ears?
Who elected you to decide this sort of thing, incidentally? I can find you at least 3 highly trained musicians, who have studied composition, music theory and history, on this very board who can point out exactly why you’re wrong.
So how do you guys feel about those African drum-and-voice chants?
Composition and theory. That’s a laugh. I can just picture Ice-T gnawing on a pencil, saying, “What rhymes with ‘stank ho’…hmmm.”
African drum: sounds like an instrument. And I previously indicated that chanting is close enough to singing for my taste.
No one elected me to anything. I say music requires either singing or instrument playing. You wanna argue what constitutes either, let’s throw down.
(by the way, why do the back ends of rappers’ microphones point almost straight up? Is this some hipness thing I ain’t caught on to? Will rappers soon start gouging trenches in their foreheads so the mic can go even farther back?)
And I said “try listening to either the Roots or the Brand New Heavies”. Unfortunately, this gives you a “headache” so you can’t be bothered with it. Does everything that proves you wrong give you a headache?
I assume you don’t think a turntable used for scratching as being an instrument?
I don’t like rap. Generally, I hate it. Occassionally, I can tolerate it. There are a few oddball songs here and there that I actually like. I’ve been accused of being racist, elitist, etc for not liking rap, but hey! It isn’t my thing. If you listen to the modern music I like, (as opposed to traditional Celtic music, classical, etc which I also listen to) it’s generally something really melodic with lots of acoustic guitar and stuff… My favorite bands are Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Sinéad O’Connor, Peter, Paul & Mary, etc… I mean if you look at my tastes (and yes there are some oddballs you wouldn’t guess in there) you can see how 99.9% of the time, rap isn’t going to mesh well.
It isn’t particularly musical to my ears either, but I do think it qualifies as “music” in a pure sense.
Let me introduce you to Mr. Strawman. I didn’t say that someone could explain to you the elements of theory and composition in rap. I said people trained in music, and far more knowledgeable than you and I put together, can explain to you how rap fits any reasonable definition of music you care to put forth.
Just what is your background in music, anyway?
Ah, but if it grows to encompass modern technology it’s no longer music? Sorry, that doesn’t wash.
Great. So explain exactly how “Shoop” by Salt & Pepa differs significantly from “Subterreanean Homesick Blues” by Dylan. Hell, I’ll bet “Shoop” has a broader melodic range.
After that, explain how “Sabotage” by the Beastie Boys (on which I should point out they all play their own instruments) differs significantly from “Kick Out The Jams” by the MC5.
What was up with Sinatra and that frigging hat, anyway? And why do KISS wear their guitars so low?
Last night on “So you want to be a millionaire” a contestant (might have been the third one…: had a chance to win $125,000 for answering this question:
Which of the following rappers song “Cop Killer” has withheld from his album by his record label?
a. Dr. Dre
b. Chuck D
c. Ice-T
d. Snoop Doggie Dog
The contestant answered “b”, Chuck D.
The correct answer was “c” Ice-T.
A little rap knowledge could have won that guy $125,000
I’ll start with this: straw man, my ass. I’m not the one who brought up composition and music theory and postulated that they had something to do with rap, you are. It’d be nice if you learned to recognize a joke, too; makes these discussions easier.
If by ‘modern technology’ you mean making the wikki-wikki noise with the turntable, then, no, I don’t call that an instrument. If you mean sampling, or using electronica to repeat snippets of recordings of instruments or singing, then, no, that’s not an instrument either. If you mean an electronic drum machine, well, I think that’s stretching the definition. Prove me wrong.
Let’s go with dictionary.com’s definition (relevant parts below).
music \Mu"sic, n. [F. musique, fr. L. musica, Gr. ? (sc. ?), any art over which the Muses presided, especially music, lyric poetry set and sung to music, fr. ? belonging to Muses or fine arts, fr. ? Muse.] 1. The science and the art of tones, or musical sounds, i. e., sounds of higher or lower pitch, begotten of uniform and synchronous vibrations, as of a string at various degrees of tension; the science of harmonical tones which treats of the principles of harmony, or the properties, dependences, and relations of tones to each other; the art of combining tones in a manner to please the ear.
Note: Not all sounds are tones. Sounds may be unmusical and yet please the ear. Music deals with tones, and with no other sounds. See Tone.
(a) Melody; a rhythmical and otherwise agreeable succession of tones. (b) Harmony; an accordant combination of simultaneous tones.
Now, note (ha!) that music must consist of tones and also should ‘please the ear’. Definition of ‘tone’ is given as:
Your ignorance plays into my hands when you write things like:
(1) Ice-T is among the more cerebral rappers, one who speaks of racism, live in the ghetto, and one of his albums, Freedom of Speech (Just Watch What You Say is an excellent take on the declining rights and intolerance of others. How appropriate…
(2) Ice-T led the band Body Count, which was a thrashing metal band. Everyone played actual instruments, and there was not a turntable in sight when Body Count took the stage.
It seems that the two sides in here have different definitions of rap music.
Wally said:
(I inserted the word music for clarity)
Not all rap music is yelling tunelessly. Fr’instance, “Regulate”, by Warren G. You are making generalizations about the entire genre that does’t apply to all of it.
For all those that don’t think Rap is music I would like to submit 4’33" by John Cage. Overall I don’t like to listen to rap but I still consider it music. Music is not necessarily defined to musical instruments or singing as the piece above would dictate. Yes, it is considered real music. The point is to listen to your surroundings and putting the focus on things that were once considered mundane.
HUGS!
Sqrl
Gasoline: As an accompaniement to cereal it made a refreshing change. Glen Baxter
Er . . . yeah. Do you know what the words “credentials” means?
Huh. How about one of those wooden fish-shaped things that you rub with a stick to get a “clicky-clicky” sound? You find it in Latino bands a lot. That an instrument?
How about a dried-out gourd filled with beans? That an instrument?
Explain how the use of them as emphatic or texture-producing percussive devices differs significantly from the use of a turntable as an emphatic or texture-producing percussive devices. Please show all your work.
Really? What about, say, “Revolution #9”? Or, as a better example, “Tomorrow Never Knows”? How about the work of Edgar Varese? Or Spike Jones? He used a typewriter as an instrument. Plumbing equipment, too.
How easy do you think it is to program a drum machine, and why exactly does it matter how the percussion on your song is provided? What if you performed live with only an acoustic guitar and an amplified metronome?
I bet that “Bring the Noise” has more melodic range than, say, any given Iggy Pop song. I’m also curious as to why you seem to be positing that the human voice is incapable of producing tones.
Combining tones. Like, say, a vocal melody?
So, what tone does a snare drum make?
Or it can stay on the same tone for several measures. And there can be little doubt that rap music is rhythmic in nature.
So, what tone does a cymbal make?
Also, “please the ear” is highly subjective. Most people weaned on Western music would find the microtonal intervals of much Eastern music extremely grating, but it is no less music for it. Similarly, Eastern music doesn’t worship the third and the fifth the way we do. And they probably never use a plagal cadence.
Still waiting for the snare drum and cymbal answers here. And human voices have pitch, obviously.
This is purely a mechanical definition. Not all cultures use the diatonic scale.
See again, “voices.”
Hmmm, let’s see, rap consists of a human voice varying in pitch in a rhythmic nature over time against various percussive devices?
While many folks who have posted here would probably agree with your assessment that Rap would not follow the muses Euterpe, Erato, or Kalliope, denying that Rap follows Polyhymnia is absurd.
(Others on this thread would, of course, argue for one or more of the others mentioned. I make no judgment regarding those conflicting opinions.)
Phil - Have I told you how much I love you lately? Though let it be said you still have 58 or so minutes remaining…
Also, has anyone here actually seen a DJ at work? The most creative (and, dare I say it, “old school”) of the bunch will be able to spin several discs at once - melding different genres, tempos and tones - all into a seamless piece of art.
So how come when someone like Todd Rundgren issues a CD that allows you to manipulate HIS sounds in similar manners, he’s a genius for it? Same with Bowie?
I submit that obviously, the music on a DJ’s crate IS music. How come by presenting it in the fashion he does, it suddenly does not become music? If you think that you can do what a good DJ can do live - which requires more music knowledge in terms of theory, tone, history, as well as more dexterity than your average speed metal drummer - go for it. I’ll bet you can’t.
Another reason rap IS music. It may be music you don’t like, but it’s music nonetheless!
pldennison: A curious by thought, sorry for the hijacking, is that all melodic music is based on the fourth. Basically the fourth is the first consonant interval. In other words it doesn’t “wobble”. If you define different countries native scales, they will pretty much all have what westerners discern as the fourth in it. They may have microtones as you mentioned earlier. For those who don’t know a microtone is an interval smaller than a half step. Many current twentieth century composers are starting to incorporate microtones into their music. This trend is especially prevalent in Mexico right now. I can’t remember the group of specific composers though. Personally, since music in the western classical style fits into a general tuning mechanism, I find this music to sound horribly out of tune, even though according to the rules defined by the composer it is being played correctly.
The “clicky clicky” instrument is the guiro aka the fish. A dried gourd with beans is a marraca (SP?). I always considered the way rap artist play the turntable to be an electronic equivalent of the marraca.
I left out a definition of melody earlier. Melody, though usually based on tones, can also be percussive. That is why you have long drum solos in older rock music. The drum is an instrument with indeffinate pitch (I use drum in the broadest sense of the word to include almost all percussive instruments in this case). Musically speaking you would call the drum solo an amelodic melody. I know it is a contradiction of terms but it works. As someone who has written several unpitched percussion pieces, I speak from experience. It is significantly more difficult to write a percussion piece and have it remain interesting. Anyway, for a good percussion band I would suggest KODO, from Japan (Lion is a specific song that is really good). For the most part it is unpitched drum music, but there is a definate introduction, theme, coda. In other words they follow good Western form in music. I highly recomend them.
Anyway, I am just trying to add more supporting evidence for you pldennison. I will check back later.
HUGS!
Sqrl
Gasoline: As an accompaniement to cereal it made a refreshing change. Glen Baxter
No, actually I find this kind of stuff fascinating. I know just enough theory to know how to voice a m7-5 or a 13 chord in any position on the guitar, but that’s about it. Any more than that and I hurt my brain. I wasn’t aware of this, though. Is that the only consonant interval in most of these scales (aside from the octave)? Do they consider some of our dissonant intervals to be consonant?
had a chance to win $125,000 for answering this question: