RAP MUSIC - do you hate it also?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
81

Hey Phil,
You asked if the fourth is the only consonant interval in non western scales. The short answer is, “it depends”. Some Asian (Chinese and Japanese) use pentatonic scales that sound remarkably similar to western music if you play it in a scalar fashion. (I.E. from top to bottom) Microtonal scales are more evident in Indian Ragas, traditional Japanese geisha music, Peking Opera, and most traditional African music. Dividing up the scale into octaves is a decidedly western thing.

BTW, being able to create complex jazz chords on the guitar is a difficult thing. I just wish that more rock musicians would learn how to do that. BTW, read Complete Guitar Chords, and Complete Guitar scales by Wilbur Styles. They are comprehensive and accessible to a guitarist at every level, from beginner to advanced. It is a dry read, but he explains everything quite comprehensively. He doesn’t explain part writing theory, but I doubt that you would like to put all that effort into it. It is time consuming, difficult, and not rewarding until you get towards the very end. (On a side note, it was my favorite set of classes in college.)

HUGS!
Sqrl

Gasoline: As an accompaniement to cereal it made a refreshing change. Glen Baxter

82

SqrCub :Damn it, mon! I was just about to mention the drum sounds of Kodo! :smiley:

I’d even go so far as to say that the clicking sounds of tap dance could be considered music (I’m thinking Gregory Heynes here, not Riverdance).

I also find the use of distortion as an instrument to be interesting, in moderation.

< Feeling like a remedial student in a room full of professors, but knowing what I like :wink: >

You say “cheesy” like that’s a BAD thing.

83

SqrlCub, that was one of the things I loved about my old band. Within a straightforward pop/rock context, Aaron, our primary songwriter, used some really imaginative chords, outside the usual rock vocabulary. And I always found it challenging as a bass player to do something interesting. He didn’t get into a real extensive jazz thing, but lots of m9 and m7-5 and maj13 chords, things like that.

There are a very few bands out there that use that kind of imagination in their songwriting, but they aren’t particularly popular. For a great rock album with some outside-the-box harmonies and melodies, try The Posies’ “Dear 23” or “Amazing Disgrace.”

84

I have to admit I only read about 25% of this thread, but regarding all the “rap isn’t music” comments, here’s my take. I think it -is-, and moreover, is sometimes pretty darned good.

I listen primarily to classical - your bachs, your stravinskis, your chopins, your liszts, your dvoraks, your mozarts. But I also sort of grow tired of people blasting the entire rap genre when many of them are just hopping on some sort of elitist bandwagon. There’s some pretty good rap music out there. Granted, it’s nontraditional in a lot of ways… but so what? Chopin, probably my single favorite musician, period, was quite nontraditional in his day. Does that diminish the music? Not to me.

Granted, there’s a lot of god-awful rap out there (something it has in common with rock). But also like rock, there is some very good stuff, if you bother to listen instead of going by some preconceived notion about an entire genre.

Just my opinion…

–
peas on earth

85

There’s plenty of good reasons for not liking rap- in fact, I agree with a lot of the OP’s reasons for not liking rap (except the “faux ‘big sneaker’”- I don’t think they’re faux :)). In most of the crappy rap videos I see on MTV, nobody looks like they’re having a good time- they’re yelling about how much money they have, pointing at some stank ho shaking her butt, and acting all tough.

I can’t defend that type of rap as being “good” cus I don’t think it is. However, it is still music. Unfortunately, for every Tribe Called Quest, there’s four Shaquille O’Neals/Puff Daddys/Master Ps.

Give me the Fat Boys any day. They had fun while rapping. And if you can’t qualify the Human Beat Box (rest his soul) as instrument/singer, then your def’n of music is so narrow as to be worthless.

86

Phil - I love you more now. The Posies are one of my favorite bands ever! When I saw them at CBGB’s in support of the Geffen debut, they rocked a lot harder live, and I was in power-pop heaven!

np: Big Star

Yer pal,
Satan

87

Satan, no kidding? I’ve seen them twice, in Cleveland when they were first touring for “Dear 23” and in Pittsburgh when “Amazing Disgrace” came out. It sucks that they split up, but Geffen never really pushed them as hard as they could have.

I got to meet Jon and Ken at the P’burgh show and they were cool as hell guys. I also compiled for their unofficial official fan club/mailing list a tape of Posies covers by list members. I still have a few around; if you’d like a copy, e-mail me.

“Come on, Phonics Monkey–drum!”

88

>Er . . . yeah. Do you know what the words “credentials” means?

“Credentials” is only one word, and yes I do. Your point?

> Huh. How about one of those wooden fish-shaped things that you rub
> with a stick to get a “clicky-clicky” sound? You find it in Latino
> bands a lot. That an instrument?
>
> How about a dried-out gourd filled with beans? That an instrument?
>
> Explain how the use of them as emphatic or texture-producing
> percussive devices differs significantly from the use of a turntable
> as an emphatic or texture-producing percussive devices. Please show
> all your work.

Texture-producing? What the hell does that mean? I assume you mean “frictional” or possibly “textured”. That being said, I gotta ask you to show that the distorted mess that comes from a turntable when scratched is more tonal than fingernails on a chalkboard. Remember, part of the definition as given is ‘pleasing to the ear’…

> Really? What about, say, “Revolution #9”? Or, as a better example,
> “Tomorrow Never Knows”? How about the work of Edgar Varese? Or Spike
> Jones? He used a typewriter as an instrument. Plumbing equipment,
> too.

You really missed the point of the argument I put forth on this line: I didn’t say that non-traditional objects cannot be instruments, I said that my playing a tape of someone else’s music doesn’t make ME a musician.

> How easy do you think it is to program a drum machine, and why
> exactly does it matter how the percussion on your song is provided?
> What if you performed live with only an acoustic guitar and an
> amplified metronome?

What the hell? Who said anything about ease of use? Just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it’s musical. Also, I can’t accept the replaying of electronically-produced thumps as percussion; no actual ‘striking’ is taking place. Saying a metronome is percussive is a stretch, but by Gadfrey, there is a ‘body striking another body to produce a sound’.

> I bet that “Bring the Noise” has more melodic range than, say, any
> given Iggy Pop song. I’m also curious as to why you seem to be
> positing that the human voice is incapable of producing tones.

Behold this creature that walks as a man, yet fails to communicate as one. I never argued that the human voice couldn’t produce tones, I said that the normal, speaking, non-singing human voice (the type of voice employed by rappers) is not tonal.

> Or it can stay on the same tone for several measures. And there can
> be little doubt that rap music is rhythmic in nature.

Now, see, you’re changing the rules; you said I could pick the definition of music, and now you’re trying to change my definition.

I’m getting real tired of this; skip skip skip…

> Hmmm, let’s see, rap consists of a human voice varying in pitch in a
> rhythmic nature over time against various percussive devices?

One, ordinary speech is not musical. Two, what percussive device? The tape deck?

You know what’s really interesting about this entire discussion? I’ve never said that I didn’t like rap. Why does rap have to be music? Is it somehow less enjoyable to you if you can’t say that it’s music? Is it less of an art? Less socially relevant?

Example: one of my favorite bands is They Might Be Giants. They have quite a few ‘songs’ that are little more than collections of sampled sounds, often seemingly random. I wouldn’t call that music either. But I enjoy it.

But, screw it, I’m done. You’d claim a political speech is musical.

89

I just wanted everyone to take another look at this:

<< There have been a few exceptions, diamonds in the rough, but they are out weighed by the gansta crapola. >>

And compare it to:

<< I ask myself this: WWFSD. What would Frank Sinatra Do? >>

Sam Giancana could not be reached for comment.

{\¶/}

90

With regard to the OP–wish I woulda seen this thread earlier. I can’t stand rap. The reason why? It has nothing to do with rap’s social or artistic merit. When I lived in a rowhouse in Baltimore, my neighbor whose apartment shared a common wall with my bedroom was a crack dealer who loved rap.

My lifestyle was getting up early and working 60+ hours a week (not counting the commute-Balt/DC supposedly has the 2nd worst in the country behind LA)–his was waking up sometime after noon (judging by the weekends) and cranking up his stereo so loud that my windows would vibrate and I couldn’t hear the TV in my room and leaving it that way until 5 am.

How do I know he was a dealer? The amount of traffic through his place, the fact the crackheads would fire up outside my kitchen window after walking out of his door, and I would personally witness vials and cash change hands. He smoked so much pot that my room would reek from the smoke coming through the bricks-something I might not have objected to, if I didn’t have to listen to all the fuck the white man [and police] “lyrics” of the rap he seemed to favor. The Balt. police knew who he was, but had bigger worries than a stereo being played to loud. They’d swing and tell him to turn it down but that would be a respite of a few hours per month.

I’d spend an hour fighting traffic to get to work, way more than 8 hours at work, and then another hour another getting home, just to have to hear his fucking music. I thought it was pretty bad that I couldn’t get to sleep in my own bed because of this shit.

Pavlovian response–I just grit my teeth anytime I hear rap. No matter what value it could possibly have.

91

MaxDorque, in response to Phil says:

<< > Hmmm, let’s see, rap consists of a human voice varying in pitch in a
> rhythmic nature over time against various percussive devices?

One, ordinary speech is not musical. >>

Rap is not ordinary speech; it’s varied in pitch in a rhythmic and occasionally melodic way over time, forming counterpoint, which you’ll note are all musical terms.

<< Two, what percussive device? >>

Drums, drum synthesizers, the turn tables, the sampled instruments. I am afraid I do not see why a sample or loop is disqaulified, since hardly any musicians or performers play their own instruments. If you would like to argue as to the creativitiy, I would point out the number of songs based on that Bo Diddley progression, or how “All You Need is Love” ‘samples’ the French national anthem, and borrows the melody of three blind mice.

<<The tape deck? >>

Presumably anything that produces or reproduces tones would fit into the broad category “instrument.”

Whether or not you especially like rap isn’t really the issue. I am aware of no meaningful definition of “music” that wouldn’t include it.

{\¶/}

92

My music teacher in school taught us that music can be “any sound, heard or unheard.” I’d have to agree. If I tap my pencil on the desk, it might be music to me, but maddeningly annoying to another person. That doesn’t mean it’s not music.

My wife mentioned to me about someone she had seen on TV (Colin Quinn, maybe?), whose objection to rap music was pretty much the same as Byz’s. Rappers say that if you don’t like our music, you don’t have to listen to it. His response : Yes I do! On every single block of every city in America!!

And, though I live in Louisiana, and everyone here is down with country music, I have yet to hear Garth Brooks pounding outta someone’s speakers. It’s ALWAYS rap. Violent, profane rap being broadcast to every little kid within earshot. That can’t be a good thing.

93

SATAN SEZ:
It’s one thing to not like something. But it’s obvious to me that most here simply do not UNDERSTAND it, and choose to remain ignorant.

Yer pal,
Satan

I understand where they’re coming from and I still say RAP sucks, blows, bites and isn’t very good. I also recall when Rock and Roll was considered ‘evil music,’ but that was then and this is now. Rap is nothing more than ghetto shit, hyped up by minorities and presented as a token of poverty and being ‘kept down by da’ man.’ It basically glorifies being in da’ hood, makes heroes out of thugs and street rats, blames everyone else for an antisocial mindset and exalts being a playa’ and a gangsta’ and a shooter.

It might be music, but it is still shit. (Just like POLKA music is shit.)

It’s kind of like those damn bouncing cars in LA. The Chicanos spend a fortune on getting the damn things to jump – and for what? Big friggin deal. You got a car that ‘bounces’ at the cost of about $6,000 in hydraulics. The old hot rodders at least, after spending $6,000 on their cars had rods that were mean and had legs and could do something FAST!

Plus, I don’t recall rockers shooting each other up like rappers have been doing. Like CCR going after the Grateful Dead with machine guns (though, that might not have been such a bad thing. I’m not sure if what the Dead produced could be called music either.)

Mark
“Think of it as Evolution in action.”

94

Mark:

The fact that you are saying that ALL rap is the way you describe (by not saying otherwise, you are) proves to me that you are ignorant of the genre.

There are many examples listed here of rap music that does nothing of what you stereotype it as. But it’s so much easier to make generalizations, even when they’re wrong, isn’t it.

Yer pal,
Satan

95

SATAN:

Nope. Just saves a lot of bytes. I’ve not found any rap, no matter the context, that I, personally, like.

But then, I’ve not found any form of Polka Music, no matter the context, that I, personally, like either.

I also dislike almost all Gospel music. That, I consider, tantamount to caterwauling and I’m not real happy with ‘Blues’ either. These are all personal opinions.

Mark
“Think of it as Evolution in action.”

96

A couple of notes on the topic, now that I’ve found it…

I too am disappointed with the current state of rap, being a fan since the days of UTFO’s “Roxanne, Roxanne” and “The Rappin’ Duke.”

Even “Gangsta” rap was okay, IMHO, until it turned away from being a form of folk music into a “I’m the biggest, baddest, etc etc” cartoon. The original gangsta rappers (NWA, Ice T) generally didn’t glamorize; in fact, the subjects of their stories generally came out rather badly (NWA’s “Dopeman” goes to jail, Ice T’s “High Roller” is “much smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice… right?”) A lot has changed since then, and certainly not for the better.

And yes, I compared it to folk music. Consider the subject matter of such traditional songs as “Whiskey In The Jar,” “Brennan On The Moor,” (about highwaymen, ie armed robbery, and traitorous women) “The Real Old Mountain Dew,” “The Jug Of Punch,” (drinking)… and that’s just a sampling. The language is a bit, er, cleaner, yes, but… I always thought I could turn it into a research paper, but never needed to.

Mark Kinney
alberich@iglou.com

97

Okay, I there were so many posts I didn’t read them all but I just want to put in my two cents. I don’t like rap. However, I won’t deny rap credit for being a music genre. I mean, sure, there are a few songs that are exceptions. Most times, I don’t want to understand or “get” what rap is about. I don’t think it’s right for some of the people who have posted to say that to not want to understand rap is underlyingly racist. If a black person refuses to be open to listening to music other than rap and black artists, does that make that person racist against white people? No, it doesn’t. It could, but it just simply might be that they don’t like anything other than rap. The bottom line is just that different people have different tastes and it should just be left at that.

98

Let’s go with “used to produce texture.” You know, as in variety, added elements, that sort of thing?

So maracas and cymbals are not musical instruments. Got it. We can work with that. Anyway, near as I can figure, turntable scratching varies more in pitch than maracas or cymbals do.

Whose ear? Pick ten people off the street wherever you live, play them some Asian or Indian music, and ask if it is “pleasing to the ear.” Get back to me, as I am intensely curious as to the result. “Pleasing to the ear” is such a vague and often culturally-based phrase as to be practically useless. I don’t find Limp Bizkit very pleasing to the ear, but they’re music.

Does extemporizing lyrics over it make you a musician?

I did. Presumably it takes some skill to program one of those things.

If something is percussive, and sounds like drums, is it drums?

Well, so what? I mean, somewhere, somehow, the sound was produced. If a drummer uses pads which trigger sampled drum noises, it really isn’t significantly different. What about bands who don’t have drummers and use drum machines on stage?

What about an electronic metronome? I think you’re drawing your lines a little too finely, here.

Add “linguistics” to “music” in the list of “things Max didn’t major in.” It most certainly is so, and rap sounds more like singing than speaking in most cases.

Your definition excludes a lot more than rap. Frankly, it was a piss-poor definition.

Depends.

And turntables, and often live drummers. Again, who cares if the music is coming from prerecorded sources? If Whitney Houston sings to a prerecorded track, is she not singing?

Why does it not have to?

Mark Serlin:

Yeah, I sure heard a lot of that on the last Luscious Jackson record. Those girls and their gangsta rap!

99

In the same way you have a problem with “fat” as opposed to “big”?

Bigotry at it’s finest.

>^,^<
KITTEN
Please tell your pants it’s not polite to point.

100

The thing that bothers me most about Rap is the almost complete use of electronic drum machines.

To compare Paul Simon’s Rhythm of the Saints, using primarily Black, Carribean and African percussionists, to most of Rap, with it’s canned beat, should show the shortcoming of the latter.