Seems like you’re saying that Islam itself is barbaric, and that all the “Nice” Muslims are nice despite this fact. Am I right?
I may be completely wrong in my rememberance but Angua is a member of some very small sect that cannot in any way be compared to the two major sunni and Shia threads of Islam which have dominated since the death of mohammed’s grandson practically.
Fine - some small and insignificant sects may not treat women as second class citizens but in the real world the two major streams, in keeping with the Koran and Sharia Law, does.
All power to those who can find wriggle room but the historical and doctrinal weight of Islam is that it prescribes some pretty unpalatable stuff as seen from western eyes. And while the law in so many islamic societies implements this to some degree it is just artificial to try and claim Islam isn’t mysogynist or homophobic etc etc.
Maybe in future it won’t be but now it is. Religions are what religions do. Even in Indonesia, often cited as an exampe of ‘tolerant’ Islam, things are going backwards with the expansion of sharia law.
To argue that 'oh Islam isn’t really ‘x’, particularly when any plain reading of the Koran shows it is, and when in practice it seems to be, is just No True Scotsman stuff.
It’s great that christianity now ignores large parts of the bible or bends over backwards to come up with more patatable interpretations but for the moment that is not how the major streams of Islam treat the Koran or the schools of sharia law.
“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those among you who fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” Sura 4:34
Maybe some time in the future Shia and Sunni Islam will come to a different understanding of the issues and parse the above statement into something other than what it plainly says, based on understandings now considered fringe, but at the moment that is not what Islam is in practice about. In so many societies where islam has an influence on law and practice women have the short end of the stick. It’s not a coincidence that the one where women have practical rights approaching that of men is avowedly secular Turkey.
I’m as liberal as they come but I don’t feel some sort of PC obligation not to call a spade a spade when I see one. As I keep saying - religions are what religions do, regardless of how you might be able to parse the underlying mumbo-jumbo.
Wait, so just because Christianity is a violent religion full of hate and prejudice, I must accept and be tolerant of all religions that are violent and full of hate and prejudice? Fuck that. Islam is wrong and Christianity is wrong.
Personally, I am fully capable of hating both of them. Notice, however, that I don’t say that Muslims are evil. Muslims are people, Druze are people, even Christians are occasionally people.
Look, just because America massacred untold numbers of Native Americans doesn’t make it right for other people to do it. Even though were wrong to do that, Hitler was wrong too (you knew Hitler was going to show up at some point, didn’t you?)
If the USA and western europe were ruled by Phelp’s precepts you’d be totally justified in getting that brush out to tar Christianity. And no-one is saying ‘all Muslims’ (or shouldn’t be) they are saying ‘Islamic societies’ as legal systems or ‘Islam’ as a religion.
To equate criticism of a religion or societal policies with personal criticism is a giant strw man.
I’m all for liberal tolerant interpretations of Islam. More power to you and the sects you mention. It’s just that they don’t have any influence or bearing on what goes on in the world at the moment.
Yes.
And the barbaric Christians are breaking the rules of their “Nice” religion.
I see human barbarity as the main problem. I’ve known fine people of all faiths–& of none. (Although I might make an exception for the Christian co-worker who decorates her area with The Inspirational Art of Thomas Kinkade.)
My criticism of Saudi Arabia isn’t based on Islam, it is a criticism of theocracies. I think they are an abomination, regardless of the religion they are based upon, as the secular power aspect corrupts and distorts the religious aspect, and leaves us with the Inquisition, or with the sacrifice of virgins to the Sun God, or with rape victims being lashed. Religions can hold the beliefs they want, but once they get the coercive power of the state behind them, they become a very different kettle of fish.
It just so happens at the moment that the theocracies that exist are more likely than not to be Islamic ones. I think - certainly the ones which we hear about regularly.
‘Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women , for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward.’
‘Whosoever performs good deeds, whether male or female and is a believer, We shall surely grant him a peaceful and tranquil life, and We will certainly reward them for the best of what they did.’
‘And whosoever does deeds of righteousness, whether male or female, and is a believer, they will enter Heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them.’
'And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them,and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in it are signs for those who ponder.
Hadhrat Abu Hurayra (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) says that a man asked the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), ‘Who is worthier of my good treatment?’ The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) replied, 'Your mother (which he repeated three times), then your father."
The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) also said, ‘Paradise is beneath the feet of your mother.’
The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'O Muslims! I command you to behave well with your wives because woman has been created from the left rib of man. If you try to make it straight it will break, and if you allow to let it remain in its original condition, it will remain crooked. Obey my order and live a good life by treating your wives well.
‘The best amongst you are those who are kindest to their wives.’
I maintain that the Qur’an and Sunnah make it clear that women are to be treated with kindness and respect. Yes, I will certainly admit that some Muslims and some Muslim countries do treat women appalingly, but they do this *despite * Islam’s teachings, not because of it. It’s all too easy for a male-dominated regime to ignore the passages I quoted and twist the rest of the scripture to suit their own aims. Case in point - when the Taliban came to power they banned women from attending schools and Universities, even though Islam makes it clear that education and the search for knowledge are obligatory for all Muslims, male and female alike.
Sorry Bridget, you’ve got me confused now. I agree that there are saints and murderers in every religion, but by your “Yes”, are you really saying that Islam is inherently barbaric and that some Muslims are good people despite this? Are you also saying that Christianity is also barbaric and that some Christians are good people despite this?
Well, if you’re educated, and understand mathematics, then you’d not draw such an illogical conclusion because you’d understand that it just marks you as an idiot. Similarly, you wouldn’t pull a few passages out of a Scripture and claim that it ‘proves’ your case that all Muslims are barbarians.
I am flabbergasted that people do both those things and think that they have provided anything resembling sufficient proof to make a firm case.
You know, you really are a prize idiot. In a thread where the OP says “consider me to be a sworn enemy of Islam” are you surprised that people will try to explain just why labelling an entire religion with a billion followers is a bit of a sweeping statement. And could you please advise just what is either “disengenuous”[sic] or stupid about the text you quote?
George Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, Eric Rudolph said it was a christian duty to blow up abortion clinics, Christian Identity say that killing interracial couples is just punishment for violating gods law…how many bunches of “few extrenmists” have to act before you see some connection between murderous, barbaric christian extremists and CHRISTIANITY? Sheeze, this gets tiring. Wake the fuck up.
Yeah, because we’re small and have deliberately not sought political power, believing that we can make changes to the world quietly. Which we do, but it gets overshadowed.
:rolleyes: How about you make the link between ‘murderous barbaric Islamic extremists’ and CERTAIN INTERPRETATIONS OF ISLAM. Wahabiism, the religion of the Saudis is by no means a majority sect, it just so happens that one of the most powerful countries in the Middle East is ruled by Wahabiis who insist on inflicting their version of Sharia on their country. I am fully cognisant of the fact that those who perpetuate these things claim to be Muslim and to follow Islam. I am also fully cognisant of the fact that given half a chance they’d have any member of my sect of Islam put to death as a heretic. Heck, they’d have anyone who wasn’t Wahabbist/Salafist put to death as heretics. These guys are ultra ultra ultra orthodox and ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM AS A WHOLE. Fucks sake. To use your own words, this gets tiring and if it weren’t for the fact that my sect of Islam requires us to shatter misconceptions about Islam, I’d have given up ages ago.
Exactly. As soon as I see someone arguing this type of ‘condem all of X group because some of X group are idiots’ as though it’s a valid line of logical thinking, I write them off as morons. If people can’t distinguish the simplest of concepts in logic; i.e. ‘some’ does not equal ‘all’, then there’s no help for them, I figure.
Magellan,
I think the reason that there are so many “apologists” for Islam around these days is because people (Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) have had quite enough of seeing Islam constantly smeared and are simply trying to redress the balance. Everywhere you go, the media is splashed with stories of how dangerous Muslims are and how incompatible their beliefs are with the values of a normal democratic society. I think it’s entirely fair for them to decide that they have had e-frickin’-nough of it all and to try and get someone to listen to their point of view.
Yes - but as I’ve tried to make clear I see religions as only what they actually do. All the rest is irrelevant. You can create any religion you like with selective reading of the Bible or the Koran. And in this century, in practically all Islamic based societies, Islam is intolerant and illiberal whatever fine phrases can be parsed out of the Koran. All that matters is practice. Islam is what Islam does. Just like Christianity was what it did when it was crusading, witch-burning and converting ‘savages’.
Treating women with kindness and respect has little bearing on questions of equality. i treat my cat with kindness and respect. What matters is how women are treated in Islamic societies. From Indonesia, to Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia that clearly isn’t good.
When and only when these dreadful places decide to cherry-pick the ‘good’ parts of the Koran, will your quotes have any bearing on the issue. Until that far off day Islam is in practice an intolerant, mysoginistic, homophobic religion.
Like I said. Good luck to you.
It wasn’t that long ago that domestic violence was not considered criminal in the West, either. You have really no leg to stand on in your quest to prove you are holier-than-them.
Do most of you who like to rag on Islam not have any Muslim friends or something? The types of things you say are the types of things I used to say before I became very good friends with Muslims and learned about their religion from them.
But it’s not now is it? And in the West, by and large, we’ve ditched superstition as a how-to guide to keeping half the population down. Now it’s just gays and stem cells in the more backward areas. So my legs are feeling quite sturdy thanks.
Ok, so you believe that religious scripture is irrelevant and that religions are only what they “do”. You believe that for all intents and purposes, it is the actions of the believers that define what a religion is. “By their fruits shall ye know them.” Fair enough.
Why then, do you insist on focusing the actions of the minority of Muslims and then try to apply that to the religion as a whole? Are you asserting that the majority of the world’s one billion Muslims are indeed actively, deliberately and willfully oppressing women in the belief that the Quran tells them to?
I contend that this is demonstrably not the case, and that the reason Islam and Muslims get a bad rap in this regard is because it is the frothing fanatics who make all the headlines and thus give all the other moderate Muslims a bad name. Think about it - when was the last time you saw a headline that said “Muslim Man loves Wife - makes her breakfast in bed”, or “Muslim Woman runs own succesful business”? It just doesn’t sell as many papers as stories of rape and lashings does it?
Treating women with kindness and respect has *everything * to do with questions of equality. If the Qur’an tells Muslims that they must treat women as equals and with kindness and respect, then Islam is by definition not mysoginistic. What else did you think this discussion was about?
You in turn have cherry-picked the “bad” parts of the Qur’an in an effort to prove your point. How are your quotes any more valid than mine? My quotes show that there is *ample * instruction in the Quran that women should be treated well. If a Muslim chooses to ignore those explicit intructions and twist the rest to his own mysoginistic ends, then that is not the fault of the religion, it is the fault of the “Muslim”.
Malaysia and Indonesia are dreadful places? That really is a bizarre statement. I’m very fond of both countries.
I am deeply curious as to what’s prompted you to label Indonesia as an example of islamic oppression of women. For starters, it’s worth noting that Indonesia doesn’t class itself as an Islamic state, and it’s constitutions defends religious worship.
Secondly, it’s not noted as having a particular problem for the oppressive treatment of women. Neither is Malaysia, come to think of it. Oh it certainly has problems, but these have got a lot more to do with poverty than religion. Islam is no more responsible for the issues these countries face than Hinduism is the cause of India’s problems, or Buddhism the cause of Cambodia’s.