I vote 4 but I’d like to know what sort of handcuffs the cops were using. This is the old standby type, that most people probably think of when they hear handcuffs:
But this is the type that many police departments are using these days:
The suspect is placed in these with the backs of the wrists together, palms out. No way to move your hands above your waist, nor more than about a foot behind your ass.
I am telling you from personal experience you are wrong. I said it earlier. I have cuffed a decent number of people. I’ve been cuffed too. My body is built in a way that I can not raise my arms more than a couple of inches. I have seen people who can swing their arms like a jump rope while cuffed. I have had people that would not keep their arms behind them while cuffed. I have had people go into their pocket, pull out their wallet, reach around in front of them to hand me their wallet while cuffed. It is not impossible that he could have physically done it.
If I found myself in the backseat of a cop car, handcuffed with a small pistol in my hands, and was determined to shoot myself in the head, I think I could make a solid attempt. I’d be firing with my thumb, from my hip, up towards the general direction of my head. I most certainly wouldn’t have attempted this in real life, because it’s a bad shot. I’d wait until they took the cuffs off me, or I’d shoot myself before they got the cuffs on.
That said, I don’t think it’s very likely that the cops shot him either. It just doesn’t make sense given what we know.
I’d like to know where it hit him in the head, where the powder burns were, who the gun was registered to, if the bullet that killed him came from the gun they found, and the angle of the entry wound.
As a 3rd option, I’d want to know who was nearby who might have had a good reason for shooting him in the head (besides the cops). The most plausible scenario in my mind is that some crony of his didn’t want him to snitch, so they quickly opened the door, popped him in the head, threw the gun in the back seat and disappeared.
In fact, I’m surprised the police aren’t investigating that angle. They must be pretty confident in the suicide theory.
I’ll note this as a data point, thanks. I realize that you probably weren’t keeping track, but how common would you say this ability was? Also – and again, this is assuming the news reports are correct when they state that Mr. Carter was shot in the temple – have you ever seen anyone with that level of agility?
That is also incorrect. It is not impossible. I have both types of cuffs. What is said to have happened is not something I could do. But it is possible for some of the people I have arrested. I have seen it done. (not the shooting part but the movements necessary)
You’re referring to the police report? Like I said, I think the police are lying. We haven’t actually heard from the other witnesses yet.
Here’s what it says in the police report (linked above):
That’s from the report Skald linked upthread. Mike Branscum is the name of the guy writing the report. Teal and MASKED are the “two witnesses”, I guess? MASKED’s name isn’t Masked, of course, the report redacted his info.
I underlined that part. That’s a really strange sentence. So he heard March on the radio, which stopped him from leaving, and Marsh thumped on his car and told him in person to get out of the car? I’m curious to know what Marsh said on the radio to keep him from driving off - but didn’t say over the radio where other people could hear.
Marsh apparently got on the radio - but he didn’t request an ambulance. Instead he said something that stopped Bransum from leaving. Then Marsh walked to Branscum’s car and told him that Carter had shot himself. Then they both walked back and looked at Carter, who was still alive at that time.
Then Marsh tried to remove the handcuffs, but couldn’t - even though Marsh was sitting up and leaning forward?
Only then did Branscum radio to dispatch and call for an ambulance?
Conclusions:
OK - so according to the report, (just taking it at face value, even though I’m not inclined to do so), I can see that they probably didn’t accidentally shoot him while putting him in the car. At this point, I’ll amend my suspicions that one or both of them went to talk to Carter after they sent the other guys away, opened the backdoor of the car where Carter was, and then accidentally shot him.
Their own statement says that Carter’s hands weren’t accessible - which means he probably wasn’t sitting up and leaning forward at the point when Marsh tried to get the cuffs off him. It also means he couldn’t have been holding a gun to the front of his head.
It also is clear that calling an ambulance wasn’t their priority - even though they could see that Carter was alive. I wonder how long they waited before calling the ambulance.
Really, the more I read, the more this sounds like a cover-up.
The bullshit level is astronomically high, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The jury’s out and if they’re letting the fibs investigate the issue, that speaks well to their credibility.
I’ve seen it many more times than I have seen a cop pull a small caliber handgun on a cuffed suspect. Or shoot them for no apparent reason.
I have seen several people who could and did scratch an itch on their face while cuffed. Which I believe would be a lot more extreme than what would be needed to shoot a small handgun.
If this is actually what happened, then these cops are idiots, because they’re all going to go to jail after some basic, and I mean very basic, forensics. Consider:
The officer’s service weapon. Has it been fired recently? Was it missing any rounds? Did the bullet match the service weapon?
If the shot didn’t come from either officers service weapon, but rather the mystery gun, then who was the mystery gun registered to? If it wasn’t registered to either cop, then you’ll have to believe that one of them regularly carries around an unregistered or improperly registered handgun for the sole purpose of accidentally shooting minor criminals in the head.
I can’t say for sure but all the systems I know of record radio calls. And those radio calls will be picked up on the cameras too. Unless something is very strange I think all of this will be easily verifible. The more I read the less it sounds like a cover up. its just too easy to tell if they were lying. Now if some of the evidence magically disappears I would go the other way with it.
This is an assumption but coming from experience “masked” is probably redacted because he is a minor.
Loach, you seem to have mistaken my question for a rhetorical one. It wasn’t. I wasn’t asking it to make a point or to prove you wrong; I was asking because you seem to have some experience in the area.
Were those persons cuffed with hands behind their backs?
The video could show the location of the officers at the time the audio captured the gunshot. From the report, it sounds like both officers were in front of the car when they heard what I assume was the gunshot (loud thump with a metallic sound).
So far, this evidence would have to magically appear before it disappears.
Do you know what Marsh said on his radio that got Branscum to stop? It hasn’t been reported anywhere.
My point about that sentence:
Marsh was apparently on the radio - but didn’t ask for an ambulance.
Branscum glosses over the time between hearing Marsh on the radio and feeling Marsh thump on his car. I thought that was curious.
Marsh asked Branscum to get out of the car before telling him about Carter - out of the car, not on the radio or the camera/microphone.
Marsh wanted to talk to the other cop and change the scene by removing Carter’s handcuffs - before they called for an ambulance. That’s in their own words, which as I’ve said, I think they’re trying to cover up for themselves.
This doesn’t pass the smell test.
Makes sense. I don’t think there’s anything strange or relevant about the redacted name; I only mentioned it because it looked weird quoting it without context.
True enough. Sometimes when there are physical disabilities or injuries its rare but necessary to cuff in front. Sometimes you have to be creative. We have one frequent customer who has no arms, above elbow amputee. But he is still somehow able to light and smoke a crackpipe. Where there’s a will…
“Holy fuck he shot himself!” “What the fuck are you talking about!?!” “He fucking shot himself!” Both run back to the car. “FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!” “Did you check if he was breathing?!!” “FUCK” “He’s still alive!” “Dispatch send an ambulance!”
Just because it sounds calm on paper doesn’t mean they were calmly walking through the incident.
