Speaking of “smell tests” – one thing that makes me think the cops’ story might be true is its obvious improbability. If they were going to flat-out murder the guy – which I can believe, don’t mistake me there – I would expect them to come up with a better story. At a bare minimum I think they’d have uncuffed Mr. Carter. While I am still disinclined to believe their version of events, I won’t say that it’s impossible rather than improbable.
I’ve never assumed that they were being calm or not being calm. It doesn’t have any bearing either way.
I suspect it was an accidental shooting, and sure, I bet they did freak out a little, once they realized that there was blood all over the car and they couldn’t get his cuffs off.
Which in no way means he shot him. I have no doubt he was in a panic. What do you think happens to someone who searches a suspect twice, misses a gun both times and then has the suspect die in his custody? Its not a good career move. I have no doubt that the first thought in his head is “What the fuck do I do?” A million things run through your mind in that instant. But the way the report is written, it should be very easy to tell by the evidence if someone is lying.
I don’t know for sure and I believe it should be investigated throughly by an outside agency. I have been reacting more to those who have said that its impossible it happened this way. It is not impossible.
Sure it does. Your quote:
You are the one who is assuming they are walking back and forth between the cars. It says a lot about the assumptions you are making.
http://www.kait8.com/story/19149968/police-release-more-information-in-chavis-carter-death
The newest information released has revealed that a small .380 caliber cobra semi-auto firearm was discovered along with an expended case and a projectile, which was recovered in the back of the vehicle. Investigators said the firearm found in the patrol car had previously been reported stolen by a Jonesboro resident .
[PDF: JPD press release on Chavis Carter death]
These pieces of evidence were packaged and sent to the Arkansas State Crime Lab along with Carter’s body after he died at nearby hospital a short time after the shooting.
A number of witnesses were interviewed, and police said their statements were consistent with the officers’ accounts of what happened and with the dash cam video from both cruisers. Officers said the statements and the audio/video evidence from the dash cams account for the policemen’s actions from the beginning of the stop until the arrival of the ambulance.
The report also said the evidence indicates that neither officer removed his weapon, fired a shot or was in a position to enter the vehicle where Carter was detained in a manner that would allow for them to injure Carter.
Police are continuing the search for witnesses and anticipation further investigation.
Furthermore, the police department told Region 8 News that the windows in the patrol unit where Carter was detained were up and intact, indicating no possibility of a bullet penetrating from the outside of the patrol unit.
How Carter managed to shoot himself remains a mystery, but JPD has been in contact with the FBI who have agreed to monitor the case, and Jonesboro Police are sharing all investigative material with them. Autopsy and crime lab results are anticipated for further review.
Police are trying to reconstruct the incident to further guide the investigation.
The Jonesboro Police Department has also inspected Carter’s cell phone. The inspection, police said, revealed that Carter may have been in possession of the gun while engaged in some sort of drug related activity prior to his encounter with the police.
That seems incredibly unlikely. More likely to hit the shoulders/back than the head. I will concede that some people have more flexibility than others, that the cuffs with chain allow more wiggle room (were those used?), and that there is ability to reach around. I find it odd that if he were reaching around to shoot the gun, his arms were still pinned behind him and his cuffs not removeable.
I considered this possibility, but think that the cops would have had a reasonably good view of their own car the whole time. But perhaps not. But dash cams and audio recording would be able to confirm/deny that theory.
So he’s got a gun tucked in his waistband, small of his back. He can’t believe the cops haven’t found it but he knows he’s screwed when he gets to the police station. He’s alone in the car so he pulls it out and starts trying to shove it down in the gap between the back cushion and the seat cushion. This being a police car, I would guess the gap is sealed because suspects probably try to hide stuff regularly. He doesn’t know that so he pushes harder and harder, looking over his shoulder and whoop, blammo.
It could happen. The hardest part to believe is the gun surviving two searches. Perhaps Loach has had experiences where significant objects were overlooked during frisks?
The fact that Marsh deliberately got Branscum out of the car and camera range before telling Branscum that Carter had been shot (assuming for the moment that their report is telling the truth) does not mean that Marsh shot him. It suggests that Marsh was trying to conceal Carter’s being shot until after he’d talked to the other cop and then tried to arrange the scene by removing Carter’s handcuffs.
In point of fact, I do think that both officers were primarily concerned by what this will do for their careers.
I think that’s why Marsh didn’t call for an ambulance.
I think that’s why Marsh got Branscum out of the car before telling him that Carter was shot.
I think that’s why Marsh tried to remove Carter’s cuffs.
That’s assuming there’s any truth at all to Branscum’s statement of what happened after the other people all drove away. I mean, it I also think it’s possible that they are just making up the whole section about finding Carter “shot himself”, but I can see it’s possible that Marsh shot Carter by himself, accidentally, and Branscom’s part is mostly honest about his own actions.
So yeah, I assume “What the fuck do I do now” was at the forefront of their minds. That’s not exculpatory.
- That’s not an assumption. That’s precisely what the report says it does. Here’s the section of the police report again:
- Branscum and Marsh went to their cars.
- Marsh got on the radio
- Marsh thumped on Branscum’s car and motioned him to get out.
- They went to the backseat of Marsh’s car
Those are their movements, according to the report. Neither the report nor I have said whether they were walking, running, jumping, or skipping - nor do I care. Their precise mode of ambulation is irrelevant.
My point is that
a) We know Marsh was alone at his car talking on the radio
b) We know that Marsh said something that stopped Branscum from leaving
c) We know that Marsh didn’t call for an ambulance or refer to Carter’s injury on the radio.
d) We know that Marsh moved (ran, hopped, whatever) from his own car to Branscum’s car, where he thumped on it
e) We know that Marsh gestured for Branscum to leave his (Branscum’s car)
f) We know that by gesturing and thumping, Marsh avoided having his words picked up any camera’s
g) We know that Marsh told Branson that Carter shot himself
h) We know that Branson and Marsh went to the rear door of Marsh’s car
i) Opened the door - (Wait a minute, it was shut? Marsh didn’t open the door and look at Carter when he saw him slumped forward and bleeding?)
j) Branscom observed Carter slumped forward “with his head in his lap” and blood on the front of his shirt and the car.
k) Branscum saw that Carter was alive and called for the ambulance (Why didn’t Marsh do that earlier?)
L) Marsh tried to remove Carter’s handcuffs
M) Marsh found the gun and put it in the trunk (if the door was shut, and Marsh didn’t spot the gun - how did he know Carter "shot himself, like told Branscum at g)?
Those aren’t assumptions. Those are the facts in the police report. My assumption is that Marsh shot Carter accidentally and they’re trying to cover it up.
We know the officers “went” back and forth between the cars. The MPH at which they moved is beside the point.
I did wonder how much time passed between Marsh saying whatever he said that caused Bransucm to wait before leaving and the time when Marsh thumped on Branscum’s car. But it’s not really the point.
Although, gosh, it sure is convenient for the officers that Carter bled to death before the ambulance got there and anyone else had a chance to ask him what happened.
Did I find the right Facebook account?
"About Chavis ///L\\ U COOL… IM COOL… U GET WITH DA SHIT I CAN 2 MF ///L\\
OAN:IDONT FUK WITH LIL GURLS"
It is obvious what assumptions you are making. Of course it’s important what speed they did it in. You seem to think its important that he called the other officer over before calling for an ambulance. There could have been 10 seconds between when he called him over and when the ambulance was called. Or they could have had a cup of coffee and discussed how they were going to cover it up.
I’m more interested in what the article I linked does to your assumptions? They are saying that there is evidence which coroberates the report. It would be really stupid to tell the press they have evidence if they really don’t.
Now these sources could be wrong or lying. But since there is supposed to be evidence that should become apparent in short order. I tend to believe that over your assumptions which are based on…well I’m not quite sure.
I’m finding it hard to believe neither officer heard a .380 shot. A .22 or a .25, ok, maybe…those aren’t especially loud, but a .380 makes a lot of noise. Maybe if the sound was muffled by the seat cushions and/or the victim’s body…but if so, there should be powder residue and/or burn marks.
Still finding it hard to believe that one or more police officers would kill a suspect for no apparent reason, too…
As others have said:
The story seems far too ridiculous to be a cover-up murder by the police. There are far more believable stories (like “he pulled a gun on me and I shot him”) than “we cuffed him, put him in the back of the car, and he committed suicide while cuffing”.
That said, some simple forensics (looking for residue, bullet entry angle, etc) would clear a lot up.
In terms of “BS level”, I’d put it at a 1 (improbable, but the other explanations seem even more improbable) but voted 2 just because I think an external investigation is a good idea, regardless of the improbability.
I just tried this - with a temperature gun vs real gun and a mirror:
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Very difficult but not impossible to do while looking in the mirror. Both hands were interlaced and were closer than what they’d be cuffed if not palms out.
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Got frustrated at how difficult it was so I started to look for the “barrel” of my gun instead of the mirror. Lightbulb went off (maybe I’m dense but this didn’t occur to me at first) your eye is very close to your temple. If you manage to look straight down the barrel of the gun - you will hit yourself in the eye. Off by a couple of degrees - can hit the temple. In fact when trying this and then looking in the mirror (moving only my eyes) - the temple was most often where the laser was (followed closely by my right boob).
You can’t hold the gun like you normally would - you need to have the elbow of the gun in the palm of your hand and use your thumb (as someone else suggested).
I’d wager to say if you wanted to kill yourself and it occurred to you that looking down the barrel of a gun would be fatal - that you’d have at least a one out of three chance of hitting your temple. This doesn’t take into account trigger pull, and I have no idea how much that would change things.
They did hear it. They just never heard what a gunshot sounds like when it comes from inside a closed up car. I never have either. I’m guessing it changes the sound characteristics enough that it’s easy to mistake it for something else.
If it happened it Britain, the only country (well United Kingdom + Isle of Man + Jersey) [although I have been told off by police in Denmark and Holland, on both occasions for sleeping on the floor lol] where I have met a reasonable amount of police I would say 99.9% chance that the police report is correct in the sense that this guy killed himself and police did nothing wrong apart from poor quality searching… and also 99.9% chance that there’s at least one small unintersting mistake in it somewhere, that is not particularly consequential for the whole “murder” thing.
Arkansas? I dunno. I still tend to think that MOST western police, even in Arkansas, are decent enough and both being the kind to set up a relatively motiveless murder, and setting it up in a pointlessly suspicious way is pretty unlikely. If this happened in say rural Arizona or Florida I would be more suspicious, if it happened in Maine or New Hampshire less suspicious. But maybe I am more suspicious about American “justice” than I should be.
It’s possible, but I am going to side with ‘horseshit’.
Questions for LE types.
- If he shot himself, will there powder residue on at least one hand? Also, there would be powder residue on the seat?
- FBI crime scene guys can tell how far away the gun was to his head when it went off? Can they tell the angle of the head from blood splatter?
Or have I seen too many ‘Dexter’ episodes?
Does anyone know what his warrant was for? I wonder if it was so bad that suicide seemed like a better option.
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Yes. But its not a perfect indication.
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Yes to a certain extent.
I can understand the horseshit reaction. Its an unusual case. It sounds strange. But now there is more information. Unless the investigators are lying to the press we know there is evidence. "A number of witnesses were interviewed, and police said their statements were consistent with the officers’ accounts of what happened and with the dash cam video from both cruisers. Officers said the statements and the audio/video evidence from the dash cams account for the policemen’s actions from the beginning of the stop until the arrival of the ambulance. " That is pretty unambiguous. And also “The report also said the evidence indicates that neither officer removed his weapon, fired a shot or was in a position to enter the vehicle where Carter was detained in a manner that would allow for them to injure Carter.” If that evidence does not exist or if the video and audio show something different that would be a very foolish statement to release.
Here is another article stating that the local PD has asked the FBI to join in the investigation. It also has this quote from the Police Chief on HLN:
I don’t know who these witnesses are but so far I haven’t seen anything to indicate it was anything other than self inflicted.