Re: Jehovah's witnesses at the door

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
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It’s a failing of mine - not so much trying to get in the last word, but letting them know that their tactics are obvious. In this case - its more about letting the other readers of the thread know - even tho I realize its a waste of digital space.

It would be nice, however, if they would actaully have an honest discourse about their beliefs and teaching instead of all these dodgy tactics - while I have studied their history and beliefs from my vantage point - they never seem to want to discuss them - instead they turn questions around and throw up strawmen - here again is an excellent opportunity for them to “answer a question” and open up a conversation and instead, raindog refuses to answer even the simple questions - ones for which any beginning JW should be able to deal with quickly and easily - hell, its even covered in the childrens books they study.

So, the question remains - if a child should be able to answer those three questions - why does raindog refuse to?, why don’t the JW at **ministryman’s ** door answer them? The motivation behind the questions and the posters “thoughts on why he hasn’t got an answer” are side topics after the questions are discussed.

But anyway - I’ve wasted too much time here again.

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I came across this post through Google searches. I am not with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I am posting because of what is being said concerning Charles Taze Russell.

Russell did not believing in creating, or re-creating any new church; he believed that the church and had been created by Jesus, and there is no other foundation.

Neither did Russell believe in creating an human-ruled organization, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He preached against such authoritarianism and sectarian spirit.

Indeed, the message preached by Russell, especially as regarding the ransom for all and Armageddon, was almost the opposite of the message being preached by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Russell did not believe that Armageddon was eternally destroy all the wicked. Russell believed that Armageddon was a period of time in which the peoples of the nations are chastised in preparation for the coming blessings of God’s kingdom that is the result of Jesus’ sacrifice for the whole world. Russell believed that all who blinded by Satan who should die during the Armageddon struggle are still under the ransom for all, and that they will be raised after Satan is abyssed, at which time they will enlightened, and then they are judged by means of the books that are opened to them, according to their works in that day.

After Russell died, Joseph Rutherford gradually created the JW organization. By 1930, the Bible Students movement, represented by the majority, had rejected Rutherford’s new organization dogma as well as his new gospel.

Russell showed from the scriptures that Jesus’ sacrifice did not purchase for mankind life in heaven, but rather the life that Adam lost, human life on earth. – Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6.

Russell believed that the 144,000 would rule in the heavenly realm as joint-heirs with Jesus; he also believed, however, that the great multitude would be raised with spiritual bodies. I tend, however, to believe that both the great multitude and all symbolized by the 12 tribes who do not become sealed as being of the 144,000, simply remain on the earthly level of life.

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I am responding as a Bible student; I am not with the JWs.

Russell, of course, never made use of Johannes Greber’s translation. The only reference to Greber I could find amongst any of the authors amongst the Bible Students is in an appendix of the THE REVISED VERSION (American Edition) Improved and Corrected (James Parkinson), which simply gives a “Comparative Accuracies of English-Language Versions of the New Testament”. Greber is listed, but with the word “spiritist” after his name.

At any rate, the Hebrew/Greek text of the Bible itself has enough testimony to show that “THEOS” in John 1:1, being applied to the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15), is not meant to say that the firstborn creature is the only true God whom the Logos was with, toward, in service of. (John 17:1,3,5) Based on the Hebraic usage, the Logos was mighty in his glory that he had before the world of mankind was made through him (John 1:10; 17:5), but he was not the only true Might of universe. (John 17:3) One does not need to appeal to a spiritist’s “translation” of John 1:1 to understand this.

Smyth’s, Barbour’s and Russell’s studies of the Great Pyramid have nothing at all to do with any kind of practice of astrology, demonic occultism, demonic spiritism, spiritistic numerology, etc. God’s Stone Witness is Egypt is not pagan, nor did the demons have knowledge of the revelation before it was given to Jesus. (Revelation 1:1,2) Nevertheless, Egypt did pervert many things of God’s creation for use in their religious idolatry and practices, including the constellations, the sun, the moon, the stars, trees, various animals, and, yes, the Great Pyramid. – Isaiah 19:14.

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as a curiosity - you say you are a Bible Student and not a JW - does this mean you are a member of the group that still follows Russell’s teaching today? (Just making sure I understand where you are coming from.)

As for the “reliance” on Greber and the Pryamids - when it comes to WT teachings - both of those items are soundly denounced by their later publications - read the linked to information - yet they conveniently forget that they have done both. It is the hypocrisy of it more so then whether or not they are valid/invalid teachings.

Atleast the ‘Bible Students’ that are following Russell’s original teachings on the matter are not hypocrites in this regard.

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I struggled in vain to read where those verses support the idea of restored human life on Earth.

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So ministryman claims that with three questions he can send the JWs packing.

Apparently we only need one to accomplish the same result…

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Bravo sir, well done indeed -

ministryman’s claim that the JW never answer his question(s) is soundly debunked. Let the world rejoice in yet another victory by raindog.

:rolleyes:

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Thanks!

It feels really good to be noticed.

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although now that I think about it…

The reasons that JW are not coming back to answer ministryman are essentially the same reasons I don’t answer you. (or Troppus and the others…)

Would you like me to answer your earlier questions?

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another non-answer - for MinistryMan. (you live in opposite world, don’t you?)

But, better question is - Why should I believe anything you post? Your track record isn’t exactly good for honesty and forthright answers. But - if you want to give it a shot, go for it.

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I’m not sure why my last post was ignored, inasmuch as some posters complain that Witnesses ignore questions and in that post I endeavored to answer some. I am not usually predisposed to call people rude…

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OMG. I enjoy a dope-free weekend at look what happens…

I suppose that the reason I have not had an answer for 30 years is because the JWs being sent to canvas and recruit aren’t equipped to do their jobs. That’s a bad message for any organization.

But to address one JWs answer to my third question, Heaven isn’t paradise on earth. My religion says that the faithful (with no limits) will get into Heaven, so why would I accept a religion where I can’t have the same reward as everyone else?

Again, still unanswered…

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Exasperation, not rudeness. Bailed because of your habit of issuing non-answers and pretending insult where there is none.

Which translation of the Bible are you adducing the instructions to solicit from?

No one accused you of breaking any laws. I asked you how you justify using our justice system to support your decisions to refuse blood transfusions to minors and also to argue for the right to ignore no soliciting signs while refusing to vote or participate in any form of politics, government, civil or military service. I ask the same question again.

Nudity in the privacy of one’s home is not akin to sexual perversion. That is an absurd equivocation.

Again, the opposite of what I stated. I did not state that you have any learning deficiencies whatsoever. I said the quality of your audience is questionable because you are deliberately leaving out college campuses while soliciting. Why do you do avoid college campuses, dorms, frat houses, etc while proselytizing?

dougie_monty, the practice of using loaded questions, logical fallacies, and other intellectually dishonest debate tactics isn’t clever, amusing, nor does it add an air of mystery to your belief system. It isn’t remotely challenging and can be observed on any television show, movie, or political debate and is recognized as transparent by any observer. If the point is to bore your opponent to death: it’s working. If you want to enlighten, educate, relate to others or otherwise spread the good news honest answers are the only route. Of course you have the right to refuse to answer questions, but an explanation as to why this or that question makes you uncomfortable would be appreciated.

Witnesses have a website. The Bible you use is widely available in print and online. Historically accurate information about your belief system is also easily accessible as are testimonies from a large number of apostates both disfellowshipped and those who simply wandered away from the Kingdom Hall. The questions I have for you are easy enough to find online without this tedious discussion. I ask you because I want to hear specifically from your perspective. If you have been forbidden from dealing with non-believers, then just let this conversation go. But I assure you, I have no desire to separate you from your beliefs or plant a seed of doubt. I will answer any question you have for me honestly and openly. If cognitive dissonance causes you to feel uncomfortable with a question: say it and I’ll drop it.

Before I bailed on this thread, I had two questions. The relatively fractional number of Witnesses compared to Christians of other denominations seems to demonstrate that door-knocking isn’t the best way to spread the Good News or grow your congregation. Since many people find it a nuisance, since you leave whole swaths of collegiate doors unknocked, and your fellow Witnesses must co-opt the court system to force your practice on others, why continue to do it?

How can you participate in a Christ-based system that shuns those who question, express doubts, or leave the church?

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Well, I can’t say I’m answering for every JW you’ve spoken with over the last 30 years, (nor can I speak for you; you wouldn’t be the first person to play fast and loose with the facts to do a little internet posturing, if that’s what’s really happening here…) but I can speak fairly confidently about a few things common to JWs and the questions you raised.

It’s been my extensive experience that likely most----if not all----of the JWs you have ever spoken with could clearly articulate from the bible why they believe that the hope that mankind has for the future lies principally in the prospect of living on a paradise earth. Moreover, they’d be able to show you that the original offer extended to Adam & Eve did not include a trip to heaven; rather they had the prospect of living forever on earth.

They’d be able to show you that the OT had no provision for the Jews dying and going to heaven. They’d show you that Jesus’s sacrifice was a source of redemption for mankind, and even those Jews that chose to follow Jesus didn’t think they were going to heaven.

In short, they’d be ready, willing and able to spend 2 hours with you in answering your questions------if they perceived you to be sincere, interested and without ulterior motive----but not 2 minutes in arguing with you.

In other words, they are quite willing to invest their time with people who are manifestly open minded, open hearted, curious and receptive. They do not want to argue with someone who is closed minded about their message, or whose mind is already made up, or who is manifestly hostile to their message or who simply wants to argue.

I can’t speak for the JWs you’ve encountered, you or your demeanor with those JWs, how accurately you’ve represented those encounters here (which lack all context), but the ***exact way you posted those questions here *** suggest to me that you are already hostile to their message, have an already made up mind on the issue of heaven, and are not receptive to their message.

Assuming that’s true, and assuming that’s what they perceived (of course, they can see you, your tone, facial expressions etc etc) then they simply perceived the question "My religion and my Bible says that Heaven has no bounds on population…Can you tell me why I would want to join a religion in which I have no chance at Heaven? " is tantamount to asking, “Why in the world would I want to get involved with a religion that has it all wrong?”

If that’s true------and assuming you’re giving the straight story------their seemingly inability to answer you is simply their disinterest in arguing/debating with someone whose mind is already made up.

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So I ask again, why do JWs spend their time doingthings most likely to encounter people who are closed minded, already have their mind up, or are manifestly hostile to their message or just want to argue? Door to door is the least effective way to find people who are actually curious. Put up signs, mail out flyers, leave [del]trash[/del]pamphlets on car windows - hell, wear a T-shirt that says “Ask me about the path to Jesus” or whatever. Every one of those methods will bring you in contact with people who are actually open to what you have to say, as opposed to interrupting people at random. Knocking on doors, though, is just going to make people hostile to your message.

**

That passage is not a command or an instruction. It is a description of events that happened. Just because the apostles at that time spread the word house to house, that does not mean it was expected of them, or that it is expected of you. Maybe they spread the word house to house because they were traveling and staying with people in their homes, and sharing the word with the people that were hosting them.

**

But that wasn’t the question. You weren’t asked “Why don’t JWs only go to college students”, but “Why do JWs avoid college students”.

It’s this kind of evasiveness that is why people are ignoring your response. You don’t answer the questions asked, and instead make biblical references that have nothing to do with the topic and drop them in like they are supposed to mean something. Case in point, you have yet to answer how vomit on tables has anything to do with the clergy/laity split.

Again, a completely irrelevant cite. Those verses say nothing about people wanting JWs to visit them at their house. Those verses are merely the comment that something that is inspired by God will flourish, whereas if it isn’t by God it will die.

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Troppus, it is pure assumption on your part about the reason why JWs ignore colleges. I could think of 2 or 3 reasons that have nothing to do with the education of the people being witnessed to. I’m not going to state them because I’m not going to do dougie_monty’s work for him. If he actually has an answer, I want to hear it, and not just another evasion and redirection.

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Irishman

Out of curiosity, have you read the bible?

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I’m assuming it has something to do with the fact that JWs are discouraged from attending secondary schools, (although I know of one who finished a trade school). I really don’t know why they avoid knocking on dorms, but it seems somehow hypocritical to claim that door knocking reaches the most people, only to discriminate against certain people who are concentrated in an easily accessible area.

If you know the reason why campuses and surrounding complexes are avoided I’m genuinely curious. (And not, as **dougy_monty **stated, making a value judgment about Witnesses or their median IQ’s)

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What is the point of this question? Seems obvious that anyone posting questions or challenges to JWs in this thread clearly has at least a passing familiarity, and some of us have studied the Bible extensively.

What translations of the inerrant Book have you read?

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I have neither the time nor the inclination for posturing of any sort. My nickname belies my profession.

A discussion was open and opinions asked. Mine was offered as an alternative to appearing in front of the door nude, with a water hose, etc.