I’m curious…
Are you an atheist? A theist?
Have you read the bible?
Yep. Nope. Umm… heck yeah I have. At length, both as a scholarly pursuit as well as curiousity. I enjoy reading. Though The Holy Bible is an interesting literary work containing parables, geneology, spotty historical references, and contradictions; I don’t enjoy ploughing through it. The multiple translations are just… tedious, and I don’t know Greek.
If you are hinting that Witnesses take their orders directly from the Bible…
Which *version *do you use?
Where is the verse that directs you to go door to door?
The verse that advises you to refrain from oral sex?
Texting?
Which acts are permissable between a man and wife?
Which movies to watch?
Music to listen to?
But if Witnesses pick and choose which verses to hold fast to, which to ignore, and when to improvise and spread intolerance… nevermind.
so you’ve read multiple translations?
raindog, I can debate you if you wish to continue. But we won’t make any inroads in either direction. I realize your faith is concrete, and my intention isn’t to plant doubt. I’m certain that I can’t, and shouldn’t try. My intention was to complain that my request to stop JW soliciting was ignored, then argued when I finally reached the Kingdom Hall (boss?) who recognized my visitors.
Then, when you laid claim to freedoms enjoyed by taxpaying/military joining/voting/politically active citizens as well as people like you who turn your backs on all of the above while taking full advantage of the perks of living here… I felt disgusted. Still feeling disgusted by that cheap ploy, which I feel is representative of many of the dishonest tactics (theocratic war strategy… geez) employed by Witnesses.
I did intend to express exactly why I find the visits to be not only a nuisance, but also disingenuous. On top of that, I find the practices employed by Witnesses to be exceedingly cruel and intolerant as well as contradict Divine Design/natural biological instincts.
So when a Witness confronts me at work, at school, in the waiting room, or at my very front door, all the contradictions and cruelty bubbles up and I’m appalled at the intrustion and the facade of kindness.
Nope. Only two. I was raised with the King James, and my last two courses required the New Revised Standard with Apocrypha. But this online tool is my favorite, it offers multiple translations of every verse.
Moot point either way; the very fact that there are multiple interpretations is evidence that multiple men created the works, and multiple men revise it at will to serve their own ends. I read it with a grain of salt, if you will.
Ms Robyn, your point is well taken. But I’ll bet none of those Witnesses you’ve objected to, have the courage to post their position on this message board. Who knows? Maybe they might come up with a point none of us ever contemplated.
Germane here is a line from one of raindog’s posts:
- A simple “No thanks” is the price you’ll pay for this freedom. Better yet, call the Kingdom Hall and ask to be put on the “Do Not Call” last and they won’t come.*
Fair enough.
Troppus and others. See my post at #76. You are wasting your time talking to people who have their hands over their ears and can’t hear you.
They are a very mild western version of the innocent Islamic teenager who becomes a suicide bomber. He sits in his madrassa, hearing only the teaching of his extremist teachers. He does not even know there is any other interpretation of the Koran except the one says to kill people. If any normal Muslim tries to explain, he is also viewed as a tool of Satan.
We are lucky that this version of religious mania only knocks on our doors, and does not hijack planes. But it’s the same psychology, with a heavily limited interpretation of another holy book - and limited understanding of other people and their viewpoints.
Dougie, Raindog -
Please answer honestly -
If I put up a no soliciting sign - will the JW bypass my door?
If I am put on the “do not call” list - will the JW ever call on my address again? Under what circumstances will they call anyway?
What you are bypassing here is that there are a number of people who never want to be contacted by the JW at the doorstep, for a variety of reasons - and the JW continue to ignore those requests.
It doesn’t matter how much time is wasted or the level of intrusion or what it takes to send the person away - its that they do not want to be disturbed in the first place.
I am not Dougie or Raindog, but a no soliciting sign- it does nothing. I have one and they still come.
I have also asked my JW MIL and she has said a no soliciting sign will not stop her either.
The JW’s continue to knock on your door, even if you have asked them not to come back, because they think they will be able to catch you in a moment of weakness. They say your life circumstances change all the time and even if you didn’t want to hear their message previously, you may need them now.
MIL was hijacked by the JW’s because she was lonely. She was in a house full of men who only interacted with her when they wanted her to make them something to eat, so when the JW’s came a-knockin she jumped at the chance to talk to someone. Even though she was otherwise an intelligent woman, she eventually decided to join them.
It is becoming quite difficult to deal with her, she claims she does not want her birthday celebrated (or any other holidays) because of her new religion, but then becomes upset if we don’t acknowledge her on those holidays. She claims she can only wear cotton clothing because polyester will melt and stick to her skin in the fires of the “end times”. She comes up with crazy new demands and restrictions all the time.
She said she joined so she can have friends, but she still still sits around the house alone all the time, she only sees her ‘friends’ at church or when they go door knocking; they have never come over to her house or tried to contact her outside of church or invited her to do anything that’s not church related. Their teachings are alienating her from her family even more, but then the JW’s are not there to pick up any of the pieces. It’s really quite sad to see what they have done to this woman.
I fail to see how the JW’s have made her life any better.
dougie, raindog, about the Do Not Call list… How many Kingdom Halls are there in a given geographic area? Is it based upon population density? Do they have overlapping membership areas? How many Kingdom Halls will I need to call and get placed on their list? Do JWs go to areas not covered by their own Kingdom Hall to make visits? Is there a National Do Not Call registry, or is it individual to each Hall?
I’m guessing the answer is going to be I need to call every Kingdom Hall in the country individually.
This might be off topic but since someone mentioned different translations of the bible, but do JWs know that their translation was done by people who neither knew Greek nor Hebrew (or at best had only passing knowledge)? And had to admit it in court?
Also, not all their doctrines are based on the bible. The elders kind of make it up as they go. For example they used to celebrate Christmas until someone high up changed the rule.
As a rule, “elders” don’t make any decisions or changes like this - they simply parrot what the WT Society (or “faithful and discreet slave”) tell them to do - generally these changes are brought down from the current president and teh writing committe, but the changes are supposed to be viewed as if they come from Jehovah himself, and are not to be questioned - those that do question them are pretty quickly disfellowshipped, which is a fate ‘worse than death’ in the eyes of many of the believers. You can be disfellowshipped for continuing to associate with disfellowshipped members, even if they are family.
Rutherford - not an “Elder”, but then President of the Society is the one who is known for changing many of the rules and more less creating the “us vs them” mentality that is so prevalent now - including the change to the “cross”, christmas and many other things they believed before he took control.
Before Rutherford was Russell, a self styled ‘pastor’ who, by all accounts, was a fairly reasonable person, despite his fondness of pyramids and worrying about the endtimes, selling books - His was the “Studies in Scriptures”, a six book set of the “Bible, topically arranged” -
[QUOTE=Watchtower, Sept 15, 1910]
If the 6 volumes of ‘Scripture Studies’ are practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes- ‘The Bible’ in an arranged form. That is to say, they are not merely comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bible itself…Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself, but we see also that if anyone lays the ‘Scripture Studies’ … after he has read them for 10 years-if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone…out experience shows that within 2 years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he has merely read the ‘S.S.’ with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years.
[/QUOTE]
What most current Witnesses don’t know, and don’t want to know, is how many lies the society tells them about their own past. For instance, 1914 was not originally the “beginning” of the end, but it was to be “the end”, the beginning of the end was actually in 1874, but when it didn’t have the outcome expected, they called that one a spiritual one as well.
There was also a rather famous sermon by Rutherford around 1920 entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” about how this was to be the “last generation” - they even built a house in San Diego to welcome back Abraham and a couple of others (Beth Sarim) - In the more recent books the JW have published, they changed the title of the sermon to “may never die” and completely forget about the other stuff. Since I actually had a copy of the original tract that went with the sermon, it was a a pretty obvious bold faced lie on their part. Same as I had the book where they proudly talked about the house, etc.
This doesn’t even scratch the surface on the other lies and half truths they use to spoon feed their flock - but that is best left for a completely different message board.
Anyone interested in finding out more of this stuff can do a little Googling and research and find it without much trouble. It is at times a rather fascinating and interesting look into a group of “bible students” that truly never really study the bible, but WT publications about the bible.
I know, Michael of Lucan, I know. I had wandered off before being smugly reminded of the court cases that allow Witnesses to ignore posted signs in some jurisdictions. 7 million Witnesses refuse to serve. Refuse to vote. Refuse to participate in, enact, or uphold any political action except for that which allows them to trespass, shun, and deny transfusions to the very sick. They just take such advantage, then march onto our property spouting hate, sexism, and intolerance and in most locations, we have no choice but to allow such people into our families’ private space. And all at the behest of 7 self-appointed governing “anointed” males. Boggles.
However, a Pew study in 2008found that only about 37% of persons raised in the JW faith remain with the church. Thanks to the reminders of Theocratic War Strategy, court decisions allowing Witnesses to skirt trespassing laws, and the inexcusable cruelty of shunning, and oh yeah: college and other forms of higher learning is frowned upon. I have a new outlook.
Typically a party of 3 or 4 adult Witnesses with a child or two in tow roll on shore here about every two months or so. If 63% ultimately flee the faith, at least one of my visitors will at some point need a friend, and a link to all things tolerant, kind, and measurable. And their God will be welcome as well. I will happily escort them to every denomination in a 50 mile radius until they find a fit, help them enroll in college, or give them the space to work out any doubts or certainties. My home is now open to Witnesses, and rest assured that I will find a spot in the sales pitch to let my visitors know that they are welcome in my home when they find themselves mercilessly kicked out of their own small world.
I don’t know. Consider involving law enforcement?
Powers &8^]
(bolding mine) - those cases do no such thing - what they do is to prevent the localities from enacting ordinances (rules) that require door to door solicators to ‘register’ and have a license/permit before they go door to door. They also qualified that in the eyes of the court, that the JW (and other groups/people like them) don’t qualify as “solicitors” in the same sense that the kirby carpet cleaner guy does.
The JW take it one step beyond that and claim that that means they can ignore the signs - and yet will come on here saying they respect peoples privacy. The person’s right to put up a sign to limit intrusions by peddlers is not limited - the JW just choose to ignore it.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand. Is it the strict wording of the law that differs from what I wrote? Is it because they are not selling a product for money?
Ah, wait, do you mean that they are still breaking the law by ignoring posted signs?
That’s a tricky question left to the lawyers - I don’t believe the “no solicitors” sign ever carried any legal force behind it - “no tresspassing” on the other hand does, but you still have to have time to get to the police, etc in order to have any real enforcement of it.
It’s supposed to be something that folks respect. That the JW decided that they are not “bound” to it shows how little they respect the homeowners.
Edit - just saw your other post - You are always allowed to put up the signs - the JW do not consider themselves “solicitors”, therefore they choose to ignore it. The court agreed that in “principle” there was a difference between folks peddling wares vs those peddling religion or politics when it came to these signs. I do believe there may be some recourse against the “kirby vacuum guy” if he ignores the sign, but that is likely a civil matter and one for his employer to deal with, and not the police.
Eh, either way. I’m no more disturbed by the JW’s blatant exploitation of common courtesy and legal loopholes than I am by the JW sidestepping in this thread. I searched some old threads and found some JW’s admitted the existence to a written “Do Not Call” list, though none would admit the time limit on that. I’ve given up on stopping the intrusion, though I hope others are more successful.
Re-reading the JW posts just makes me feel more concerned and empathetic about what will happen to them if/when they decide to leave, or dare to question any decisions passed down by the self-appointed self-deified 7 in charge. In the future I’ll err on the side of kindness and open my home, but somehow make it clear that invitation is conditional on their forced exile.
Let me ask you, are you an atheist?