So she gets “some names from the obituary column.” That sounds like a half-truth. That’s something like addressing a letter, “Apartment 6R, New York City.” I know. I grew up in a telephone-company family and I know from many years of experience that looking for one specific name (from an obituary column) when armed with names from a phone book to search through, is like looking for a needle in a haystack–with the added risk of alienating a considerable number of people before finding the one you want. I personally question the method used by this woman, mentioned in the Kingdom Ministry, as impractical, and I would tell her so myself.
This may be too old to count as a valid example, but when my older son died in 1994, the paper published the block on which we lived. (300 block of Little Creek Road) I didn’t write this, the funeral home did. We ended up with all manner of mail and phone calls, including some religious stuff. I can’t remember if any of it was from the JWs, though; those started going in the trash unread, then we started throwing everything away that came from someone we didn’t recognize, as well as changed our number to an unlisted one.
I would further argue that the Internet makes it somewhat easier to find people; even those who don’t have listed numbers may still pop up in a Google search.
I find it interesting that you call material published by your organization “half truth” and that you would question its viability and methods - if you’re being honest here, I applaud you for not being a “run of the mill” Jehovah’s Witness.
Most JW’s don’t appear to be concerned about alienating people.
What I mean by “half-truth” is that the whole story about how this woman uses names she finds in the obituary column is not described. (I applaud newspapers forf not printing addresses, for security reasons–lest burglars time their visits to the home to coincide with the funerals.) By “alienation” I mean that if, for the sake of argument, I were to find the name John Smith (reductio ad absurdum) in the obits and wanted to locate the one who died, I could anger quite a few other John Smiths before finding the right one. By “alienation” YOU seem to mean that the Witnesses actually go to other people instead of doing like other churches and waiting for people to come to them, and this annoys you. --Matthew 28:19.
The quoting of Bible verses that support a couple of your tenets is cool and all, but since you probably don’t follow all the commandments to the letter that quoting habit doesn’t hold much water.
How often do you sacrifice a female goat to atone for a sin of ignorance? Lev 4:27-28
Do you avoid touching your woman during her cycle, while she is unclean? Lev 15:19
Surely you don’t wear garments of mixed fibers. Lev 19:19
Do you prevent blind or lame people from attending church? Lev 21:17
Could make the list longer, much. But my cherry-picked verses are about as likely a call to action as your favorites.
(bolding mine) - and is irrelevant to the point - but you know that. The WT clearly suggests and supports the notion of using the obituary to find people to witness to.
That it doesn’t spell out every step to take to make that happen is irrelevant - and YOU know that.
Doesn’t matter how you define alienation. Why is it worse to contact by phone or letter 3 or 4 other John Smiths that did not just have a funeral for a loved one than to contact a John Smith who did? “Oh, I’m sorry, you’re not the guy who just had a loved one die. I can’t witness to you now, but I’ll drop by later while you’re having dinner.” If contacting someone who doesn’t want it is alienating, why does it matter the timing? If you don’t wish to do some minor thing because it is alienating, why do you choose to do something more substantially alienating? There’s no logic there. Sure, there’s a verse that specifically says “in their homes” and not a verse that specifically says “mail them letters” or “only if they had a death in the family”, but that hardly makes justification for one form of alienation over another.
You are the one trying to justify behavior that most people find annoying, rude, and alienating (i.e. makes your group seem weird and out of touch and purposefully annoying). And at the same time you think one form of alienation is somehow awful, but another form of alienation is great.
What if my god tells me to kick you in the nuts? Do I get a free pass on that because it’s part of my religion? Walk up to stranger, kick in nuts. “God says hello. Want to learn more about God?”
Veering away from the current obit visits portion of this thread…
My doormat clearly states “GO AWAY” in large easy to read letters; I have a skeleton hanging from the porch light; a red-eyed demonic gargoyle on a pedestal in front of the doorbell; and a red “NO SOLICITING” sign on the door. I think it’s pretty fucking clear that I don’t want any strangers showing up on my doorstep.
Yet, I still get regular visits from JW’s. I tell them politely I am Not Interested and they still come back, what more could I possibly do?
Sometimes I am on a schedule where I have to sleep during the day and a loud knock on the door or a doorbell is not a “minor disruption” to my day. It is extremely difficult to get back to sleep with all the daytime noises and bright sunlight working its way around the drapes.
[SIZE=“5”]First, let me say that for almost 30 years the greatest joy in my life was being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses… and I knocked on many doors. In fact I climbed mountains to find people who could not read and had no knowledge of God… so I could bring them the good news of Jehovah’s kingdom. I went without all the things that most people call necessities, because the joy of witnessing about that kingdom brought me more joy than any material possession.
Before you start hating me, let me say… I am no longer a “Witness”. But don’t think that I am like you… I am not. I don’t hate Jehovah’s Witnesses… they are, and always will be, my estranged family.
But I am a bridge… because I know both sides.
Jesus warned his followers that the world would hate them because they were no part of the world. When you hate Jehovah’s Witnesses, you strengthen their faith.
If you want to be a spiritually strong person… stop hating… hate is fear and fear is the opposite of love… and God is LOVE.
The next time a Witness knocks on your door, say to yourself… God does not want me to fear this person… God wants me to extend love.
listen to what they have to say… and accept everything that says…"God, your father, loves you. Ignore the rest.
[/SIZE]
fishlegs, your enthusiasm is apparent, and I appreciate your input. But no one here has said that we hate followers of the JW faith. We are annoyed by the disturbance, some of us find uninvited solicitation to be bad manners and inconsiderate, and some of us find the visits smug and presumptuous (that’s me).
If you read the whole thread, you found that non-believers are aware that rejection strengthens the faith of martyrs. Big deal. If one is a martyr, then all adversity becomes a “test” whether that means a broken shoe lace or a door slammed in your face, so the complaints voiced here really aren’t that significant in the scheme of things, are they? I’m nearly certain that the JW’s reading and posting here have racing hearts, flushed cheeks, and quickened breath upon reading every complaint. Glad us non-believers can provide some extra thrills for you. But that isn’t our intent. We are actually trying to reach you, trying to get it through that we do not exist solely to give you extra martyr points. We need to sleep if we work 2nd or 3rd shift. We expect to be able to fetch the morning paper in our jammies. We enjoy our privacy, and some of us might just be having all kinds of sex with our loved ones, much of which JW’s would not approve of and should not overhear or catch a glimpse of. Door knocking Witnesses should not flatter themselves. They aren’t Soldiers of Heaven, the Hammer of God, or Jesus-on-the-Cross; uninvited solicitors are merely a nuisance. Nothing more.
As for your other points, there is no shortage of printed or online literature that explains the tenets of your faith. We aren’t ignorant of either your religion’s origins, habits, requirements, expectations, and of course we are aware of the Heaven limit, shunning, and invasive directives crafted on the fly from everything from oral sex to texting. Every waiting room, restroom, and Jiffylube is littered with JW propoganda. Keep patting yourself on the back for effortlessly padding the nation’s recycling bins. It ain’t a lot of work to lay a pamphlet down on an end table.
The insincerity expressed here by followers is apparent. Besides the fact that JW Heaven is likely full, JW’s want no part of The World or the lives of Worldly People and enjoy the ostracization of their neighbors. Though apostates are shunned, and left entirely alone in the world save some very limited contact with immediate family, they still rabidly defend the faith. The programming is apparently permanent, and though that makes me sad, Free Will is yours for the taking. If you want to kick, scream, and feel hurt about being shunned: it is your right, and there is a World of people out here who would empathize and lend an ear, a shoulder, or in my case: a spare bed and 3 squares.
fishlegs, the JW faith is so very restrictive, forbidding, and in the case of the slightest doubt: inexcusably cruel. There is very little you can add that can spin the belief into something kind and tolerant. But hopefully since you left the faith you have found kindness and tolerance in the World and all kinds of autonomy and knowledge.
Again, thanks for your passionate response. A couple of others have said similar things, and I promise you: we understand that JW’s feel they are performing a righteous act. I just wish they would understand that we don’t exist to hammer in another nail with every slammed door. We just want to sleep in and enjoy time with our families unmolested.
I don’t hate you because you were a Witness but I do hate you for your font size.
And you would probably expect Witnesses to hold to the dietary laws in Leviticus–no pork, shellfish, birds of prey…
Unfortunately, if you would note from a passage in Acts, the apostle Peter, faced with the issue of admitting Gentiles to the Christian congregation, got a vision of un-kosher beasts and a voice admonishing him “Rise, Peter, slaughter and eat!” which he caught onto as an allegorical message that the “unclean” people of the nations were no loniger unwelcome, ands were to be admitted into the congregation on an equal footing. :).
Besides, the Mosaic Law *in toto *was superseded by Jesus’ sacrifice: “Christ is the end of the Law.” --Romans 10:4.
I have not changed my position concerning obituaries. I would not think of exploiting them via phone, mail, or any other medium for any purpose, especially with the bereaved family. There was a girl I went to high school with–a talented, intelligent beauty–and three of the five members of her immediate family have died. I attended all of the funerals and exploiting them for any reason would be the farthest thing from my mind. (In fact I was angry with the minister who presided at the father’s funeral, for a posthumous reproach of the deceased man, in front of his widow and grown children, for having not attended church for a while; I was not impressed with the minister’s allusion to the parable of the Prodigal Son.) Recently, there have been deaths in our family–back east, some of my uncles. If someone had tried to call me about them, I would have given the caller a severe reproach.
dougie, I think the point we’re all trying to make that you seem to be missing is that, just because you have lines you’ve drawn with respect to your door-to-door Witnessing, other Witnesses may not have those same lines. I know I’ve had multiple visitors over a relatively short period of time. I know I had some creepy woman who identified herself as a JW call me out of the clear blue sky to give me a lecture about dead babies. Other people know that WT says it’s OK to use obituaries as leads to find people to witness to, because they’ve read it and either know or know of others who did so. Just because you have never done these things and claim you wouldn’t do them doesn’t make our own experiences and feelings any less valid, nor does it make your Witnessing any more welcome. In fact, the self-justification is, at least for me, off-putting. IOW, you’re trying a little too hard here.
If I may render a reality check…
JWs have a couple primary reasons they’ll be knocking on your door at 9:45 this morning and the notion that your rejection is strengthening their faith, or that the sundry abuse they experience (99% of which happens only as fiction on message boards) is somehow a “test” for them, or that any of them consider anything they do to be a form of martyrdom, or that they consider “Soldiers of Heaven” (or the other silly titles) is simply not true.
They do it for 2 basic reasons:
**1) They believe they were told to do this; **that all Christians were given this as an assignment or “commission.” They believe that there’s ample evidence that Jesus did this, and commissioned his direct followers this work. (and there’s more than ample evidence that they did) They’re quite aware that in some quarters it’s unpopular (after all, their leader was unpopular enough to get himself nailed to a tree) but that fact is secondary to the fact that it is required of Christians and the simple fact that…
2) They genuinely care for people and believe that they have something of tremendous value to share with fellow humans. They also know that some percentage of the people they talk to will be very receptive to their message and
will gladly learn what the bible has to say.
I assure you that there isn’t one single JW “reading and posting here [that] have racing hearts, flushed cheeks, and quickened breath upon reading every complaint.” They do not believe that there are any points for rejection of any sort or “points.” They know from experience that the vast majority of people they encounter will display apathy; and a small percentage will be receptive. (and a much smaller percentage----much smaller-----will be demonstrably angry) They will be unaware that the biggest bravado will be fiction-posted-as-fact on SDMB et al.
Whatever inconvenience you may experience please understand that this kind of thing is a symbol of a free society; that their visit is the same things that allows you to work for Barack Obama’s reelection or campaign for Ron Paul or even canvas for PETA or Greenpeace.
A simple “No thanks” is the price you;ll pay for this freedom. Better yet, call the Kingdom Hall and ask to be put on the “Do Not Call” last and they won’t come.
And you’ll still have your freedom. It’s win-win.
So, Matthew 10:22 is meaningless to you as well as the other 6 million Witnesses you speak for? And John 15:20? So only the verses that support your orders to sell your beliefs door to door are valid to you and your fellow Witnesses. And here I thought I had nothing to learn from this fruitless discussion.
That’s a pretty bold conflation you laid out there. So disrupting a disinterested stranger’s sleep, ignoring no solicitor signs, interrupting a grieving family, or just generally making a nuisance of yourself because you are smugly convinced that 6 million of you are destined for Heaven (or junior Heaven, if you aren’t one of the self-appointed 144,000) while the remaining 6 1/2 billion of us are headed for Hell is equal to the American flag, the bald eagle, the right to vote, the right to privacy, etc? Wait… you don’t vote, defend those rights through military service, or otherwise participate in the very American freedoms you just co-opted? That’s rich.
I assure you that I understand that many Witnesses feel they are doing Good Things. I get it, you and yours do not have bad intentions, and you feel that the rude responses here as well as the minute fraction of unhappy responses you claim to have experienced in real life are disproportionate to your disturbances. I also understand that a couple verses and the elders compel you to canvas, and that the complaints here are falling on willfully deaf ears.
At the risk of further insulting this dead horse, let me explain one more time from whence the disdain. I am aware that the Bible isn’t the only source of instruction for Witnesses. Male elders interpret and revise at will, and instruct through a process that is far from democratic. Rules are invented and implemented without respecting the individual freedoms, equality between the sexes, privacy of the individual, natural biological urges… and I’ll stop the list here. Suffice it to say that any religion which seeks to suppress and condemn the very instincts that The Designer built in is not just an affront to God, but just plain silly to many rational, reasonable beings.
Well, I’m glad you’re disposed to be taught. 
The texts you’ve cited show that one consequence of following Christ may include hatred or sundry abuse but it is/was not to be the purpose people were to follow Christ.
In other words, Christ isn’t saying [essentially] “Hey follow me so you can be abused and earn cool points in heaven.” Rather, in verses you didn’t cite he notes the reasons people are to follow this commission (Mt 28:19,20)
There are benefits for the person following him, and for those who choose to listen. And…some people will be hacked off, and may manifest this in violent ways. But those are one small consequence, not the purpose.
The point is simply this: JWs do not come to your house hoping for some abuse because it is some spiritual badge of honor. They do it for reasons I’ve outlined above. They perceive no heavenly gold stars because you slammed the door on them. They shrug their shoulders and go on chatting about whatever they were chatting about before you answered the door.
It certainly looks like you’re witnessing here. Ain’t irony grand? (I would also suggest you not mix metaphors. Insulting a dead horse…?)
Anyway…If you object to JWs coming to your house you can call the local Kingdom hall at 9:30 am and ask to be put on the “Do Not Call” list. They won’t ask for anything but your address. The process will be somewhere around 60 seconds. They will be unfailingly polite and will accept your request without objection.
But…much of your post suggests that you’re speaking not just for your family but for other “rational, reasonable beings.”
Pot, meet kettle.
And the verses that direct you to go door to door? Which are those again?
Witnessing? Ha. Pointless to complain to deaf ears, but seriously, raindog, a Witness laying claim to and singing praises of the freedoms of this United States beats irony to death. Your ilk do not join the military. Your ilk do not vote or participate in any political action save that which forces the public to deal with your unwanted presence on our porches. Self-serve much? Take advantage of freedoms that others fight for much? Use the court system to your advantage and offer nothing in return much?
My complaints about the directives to suppress biological instincts and acts that God Himself wired in are valid. Who are the authors of such instructions to question God’s divine design? Who are the elders to find fault with God, and plant the seeds of rebellion against His Design in the minds of others?
Whoosh to the deliberately mixed metaphor. This horse died on the first page: insult to injury/match on a fire/blue on black, etc. I’m aware this exercise in futility is pointless, but I will never cease to be amazed at the inexcusable intolerance and cruelty of the JW system. You may be the nicest guy in person, but promoting this stuff under the guise of “Good News” seems profoundly dishonest and unkind. I’ve no argument left, it is clear you feel strongly that you are right, and I feel strongly that you and yours are intolerant, cruel, and impudent in the face of both God and your fellow man. I doubt there is anything either of us can say that will sway the other.
"My complaints about the directives to suppress biological instincts and acts that God Himself wired in are valid. Who are the authors of such instructions to question God’s divine design? Who are the elders to find fault with God, and plant the seeds of rebellion against His Design in the minds of others? "*
Homosexuality. Masturbation. Oral sex. Sex outside of wedlock. Any number of sex acts that are not limited to penis-in-vagina sex. All condemned on the Jehovah’s Witness Official Website, and I personally feel that doubting God’s design is unseemly.
These are natural instincts either biological or divine in origin. Take your pick. Nothing inherently sinful about any of them so long as each happens between consenting partners, and especially divine when undertaken while in love. Someone in your club is teaching shame, intolerance, and self-hatred to young people.