Why, Miss Manners herself, of course.
http://tlstage.ny.atl.publicus.com/article/20020306/NEWS/203060324?p=all&tc=pgall
You’re operating from several false premises.
First of all, I never claimed “my presence [was] welcome”, so an experiment proving otherwise is silly.
Second of all, I never claimed to present myself door-to-door in the first place. You’ve been making a lot of assumptions about me, none of them correct.
Powers &8^]
Considering I am an atheist and have no kids, that’s too many hypotheticals for me to usefully conjecture upon.
Powers &8^]
Here’s one fundamental misunderstanding. Your doorstep is not your personal space any more than the sidewalk is. It’s semi-public space, even though privately owned; it’s there for the use of the public.
Powers &8^]
Cite?
Start here and here although there are likely a dozen or two SCOTUS rulings that establish the right of canvassers to ply their trade.
It’s one small way that a free society works,
In any case, I am not likely to consider the door-to-door ministry out-of-date, whether the language in the Authorized Version is out-of-date or not. I have Strong’s* Concordance *and can compare any of the words, in koiné Greek, as used in Strong’s dictionary.
And for the record, Acts 20:20 reads thus in the *New World Translation: *“while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”
**Originally posted by Erdosain
**
*This is a great point and very true. Door-to-door calls are only going to get less and less socially acceptable. I think this is a large reason Mormons are trying to get away from it (that, and the fact that it’s terribly ineffective). Unfortunately for the JWs, door to door canvassing seems to be a tenet of their faith and dutifully accepted as a trial to be borne.
We shouldn’t forget that while the JWs and Mormons don’t like the hostility provoked by door-to-door proselyting, they do like the bonding and camaraderie that abuse provides. Getting publicly mocked does wonders to cement group cohesion and engender group loyalty. Not to mention reaffirming distrust of outsiders. *
Call it what you will: Jesus frankly told his disciples what they were in for–Matthew 10:34-39. When you read this, keep in mind that I personally have never made a serious effort to be popular, even when I knew scarcely anything about religion.
dougie_monty, Why did you quote Irishman’s post, then make a rather long “reply” that did not in any way address his point? Seems kinda strange… After all, his point was that he wasn’t suggesting that you get JWs to stop going door-to-door, just stop the goulish practice of showing up at the doors of people who just died.
Its called “Theocratic War Strategy” – google it - its fun stuff.
That article is addressing how you politely respond, not whether knocking on a stranger’s door is polite. Also, Miss Manners is a poopyhead. She’s worried about being rude to a masked gunman. By those standards, a door-to-door proselytizer could be just as offensive as a masked gunman and she still thinks you need to be polite. Ergo, the cite does not support the assertion.
Here’s one fundamental misunderstanding - I was not asserting that the doorstep was your “personal space” from a legal perspective. You will note people cited instances of JWs showing up and walking into the person’s house. Are you now asserting that a person’s house is not personal space? Besides, “personal space” is also a social construct as well. I once met a guy from New York who complained when I sat down next to him (we were talking) because I was too close for his comfort. I didn’t object to moving over to give him room - it wasn’t crowded and I didn’t intend to make him uncomfortable. But my close proximity made him uncomfortable even though I bore him no ill will.
Piping in late to agree with this as well.
I’m about one of the most virulent atheists you’re ever likely to run across, but on the two or three times in my life that I’ve had J-Wit at my door, I’ve said, “Not interested. Have a nice day,” and off they went.
Then I had a neighbor who was a Jehovah’s Witness. I worked with the wife, and hung out with the hubby. I went to their kid’s birthday party (which I’ve been told JW’s don’t celebrate, but these did), BBQ’s, baseball games, etc. … religion never even came up.
I’m at a quandry with this. I don’t like door-to-door witnessers, but when they leave when you tell them to fuck off, what’s there really to complain about?
Ah, but I call your attention to the Book of Villa, 4:17
See - it is in my sacred text that I should dump human waste on your head if you wake me up with a hangover. Does that justify it?
In order to prove your point dougie_monty, why don’t you post your home phone number here? This would give Dopers the opportunity to contact you at your home at various times of the day and offer their viewpoints on matters religious or otherwise. You would be free to politely tell the callers you are not interested in speaking to them. This would be no more than a petty distraction taking a few minutes of your time.
If you are unwilling to post your phone number, please explain your reasons.
But…they don’t. Though her companions varied, I had the same woman (of unmistakably memorable physical attributes) show up at least 15 times for two years. Each time, I told the visitors firmly, "I am not interested. I do not want you to come back here. Except for the one time the solicitors stuffed the Watchtower and Awake under my windshield wiper as I looked on, pamphlets were left in my newspaper box. When I called the Kingdom Hall in my city to complain, I was directed to 3 other churches. On the 3rd call, I finally reached someone from a Hall 38 miles away who recognized her by my description.
I was told “Situations change. You may have experienced a death in the family, the loss of a job, an illness, or a happy event like the birth of a child that causes you to rethink your feelings about faith. We want to be there for you if you have questions.” Translation: too bad. Since you didn’t receive the message with open arms, you are clearly destined for Hell so my ilk will keep knocking and smugly disturbing your family and there is nothing you can do about it.
I was also accosted at work several times by a man who worked my shift, and who actually jumped into my car at 5 one day when I used my remote to unlock my vehicle. It took a good half hour to convince him to get out of my car, and I have to admit I was furious at the invasion of my space. Squelched it, but absolutely infuriated. I was treated to a long-winded discussion about the watchmaker/intelligent design/it is not for us to know spiel.
There isn’t anything new to add here. Witnesses will swear that they are divinely obligated to invade my space, my privacy, and insult my intelligence and sense of peace and kindness to my fellow man by forcing their views on me. And when I protest, they claim persecution because I don’t want their views forced on me. I’m not the first and won’t be the last to make this complaint, which will fall on deaf ears or worse: onto those who get off on my rejection because they are programmed with a persecution complex.
The only winner here is the trespasser who claims divine right, and in some cities and counties, a legal right to attempt to brainwash me and my family into joining their cult. Your neighbor and co-worker sounds like a cool guy with a casual relationship with the Kingdom Hall, which is something unheard of in my region. If JW’s are evolving into a more accepting group: awesome. Can’t wait until the laid-back, open-minded JW’s infiltrate the Halls in my area.
Gladly. I grew up in a telephone-company family and by sheer osmosis I learned a set of rules about telephone courtesy that I apply to this day. Besides, I am not looking for trouble.
By the way, to the poster who asked, I agreed about the issue of not calling on people who have recently had a death in the family. But I would have to know about it first (and I’ve looked at the obituaries, as noted, since we started getting the Daily Breeze in late 1971.)
So, while the focus of this is show how an elderly person is able to stay active in teh ministry - the notion of using the obituaries as a place to find names and addresses is not only suggested, it’s encouraged.
There are other quotes over the past 50 or so years that show similar stories - so its not an isolated report.
I used to be a JW in my youth (because that was the religion my parents taught me) so I may be able to provide some unbiased judgment here I hope.
I HATED having to go door to door, since I knew how annoying that was, particularly weekend mornings. Anyway, I felt compelled to do it because all the leaders or ‘elders’ encouraged us to do it and frowned upon on those who did not. I don’t remember exactly what part of the Bible says this, but they used to tell us “they are your responsibility, if you don’t warn them, their blood will be in your hands” Of course it does not say that literally but it is something like that.
I agree it is very disruptive but I don’t think it is necessary to go to extreme measures to get them to stop. I cannot speak for all JW in the world, but at least in my case, when someone told me thanks but no thanks, I thought to myself, well my work here is done, I did what I had to do.
I found LOTS of people with genuine interest, maybe they were doubting their religion or were just looking for something else, and that’s where I got into JW mode and Witnessed the hell out of them, because those people were worth my time.
The thing is, you may find people who live normal lives, spend their week at their jobs and go to church on Sunday, but you may also find fanatics who like to throw their religion in your face. I think all religions have these kind of people, and JW are no exception, but that does not mean all of them are like that.
Now, about knocking into uninvited houses, I agree it is very annoying, however their religion REQUIRES them to do it. For them, it’s just like going to church on Sunday. Why do we have to do it? Because God says so.
Sorry it is a bit long but I wanted to add my two cents here
Because I’ve experienced Theocratic War Strategy firsthand from a couple Witnesses in real life, I appreciate your input, ** JPlate**, because your opinion does sound unbiased. I’ve been reading this board for years, and I’ve seen TWS deployed in several discussions of the faith. It is unseemly, to say the least. When anonymous, faceless posters claim to be ex-Witnesses, I am usually skeptical, and reckon they might be crafting methods of planting propoganda rather than fighting ignorance.
And I agree that there must be different degrees of fervor, as with any brand of Christianity. It seems as though I’ve experienced the most fervent end of the spectrum. I’ve yet to see any door-knocking Witness or Mormon that showed any reluctance at all, and most seemed quite smug and entitled to disturb my family rather than genuinely concerned about the state of our souls. I’m especially skeptical of JW’s intentions because of the 144,000 limit thing which has surely been met, (goes without saying I feel this is nonsense, but as I understand it, that number is law to the faith) but I suppose that is fodder for another thread.
It may interest you to know that the addresses of such people are not included in the obituaries published in the *Daily Breeze *or, for all I know, in any other newspaper. Do any Dopers have examples of this? (I could not countenance going through the obits with a pen and pad for this purpose, regardless of what the Yearbook says.)
Well, I am not the one that stated that the addresses are there, so are you saying that the WT writers don’t know what they are talking about?
beyond that, once you have names - then you use the phone book or whatever to find the addresses - or are you intentionally being deceptive?
Good on you for not doing it - but this still shows that the WT suggests and encourages the behaviour.
And if you wouldn’t do it because of the Yearbook - would you follow the suggestion if it came from the Kingdom Ministry?