Regarding the blacks marching for reparations tomorrow...

Bwah ha ha ha!

Neither does “Hypocritical condescension.” It is characterized by offering priceless nuggets of unasked-for advice, chastising people who don’t deserve it, all the while participating in the very activity you claim they should be knocking off. :smiley:

I’m a public schoolteacher in an inner city school… I could give a flying fat fug about popularity. I’ll speak my piece and if I’m wrong, I’ll own up to it.

We WERE talking about how some oppressed ethnic minorities get addicted to drugs in large numbers. I presented an explanation to help show why persecution, generational poverty and other factors working in combination (hence, the “+” signs) could lead to drug addiction as a means of escape among large groups of minorities.

I know other ethnic minorities besides black peoples have been oppressed, which is precisely why I cited some earlier and will again in this post. (Way, way, waaaaay down at the bottom, there – keep reading.)

I didn’t cite the Holocaust victims for one simple reason: I realized they didn’t fit my explanation. Their every movement controlled by Nazis – where in all of Auschwitz, Dachau, Jasenovac and Drancy were Jews going to get a steady supply of addictive drugs to help them escape from the horrors in the death camps in large numbers?

Squish read my initial thoughts and thought it was bullshit.

He cited the hardships of his Russian immigrant coal miner great-grandfather… and as soon as I read that he LEFT Russia to come here and was a landowner I responded: no, your great-grandfather doesn’t really fit the scenario because of the following reasons… (where I made my misstep is I began speculating without adequate facts as to reasons how his great-grandfather fled Russia, etc.)

Hoo-boy, that was dumb of me. Squish read that and gets mad. Fires back a loooong response where I got stuff wrong. He lists how his grandfather fit EVERY equation of my theory perfectly and he didn’t EVER get high or do drugs and how he was TOO STRONG of a man to succumb to that weakness, and how DARE I suggest he should have rolled over and given up because he was doomed and should’ve handed in his farm money to the local crack dealer and bought some gold chains and smoked a crack pipe and pimped his wife, blah blah blah…

(Smacking forehead.) Keeee-rist. That’s NOT what I was saying at all!

I said his great-grandfather didn’t fit my equation.

His great-grandfather was poor… but he owned his own land once and managed to support a family of 13 and worked hard to get some more. I honestly believe there’s something about land ownership that helps facillitates responsible behavior among temptation, even among the poor… so… doesn’t really fit scenario one.

His father faced ethnic oppression. But he went an OCEAN AWAY from where he faced that to start over. Doesn’t fit scenario TWO.

Okay, I agree he faced daily stress. I agree he definitely had personal injustices. It does not appear that while he may have been bitter, he wasn’t truly feeling trapped.

And as for having opportunities to get high… HEY. He worked in coal mining country. (East coast or Colorado or… where, incidentally?) But can Squish be reasonably sure his great-grandfather was an absolute teetotaler, never got blitzed from vodka as a temporary escape from his admittedly hard and, frankly, unappealing lifestyle?

Doesn’t matter. It seems that great-grandfather had enough moral turpitude not to let himself remain in his homeland under ethnic persecution and when he lost land in one country, he get some more somewhere else. I applaud that.

Guinstasia. I’m not making the mistake of post hoc, ergo proctor hoc, because that fallacy suggests ONE event produced ONE direct result when there is no evidence to suggest it, and one event merely followed after another… I am not saying that… I am suggesting many events and conditions, working together, probably DO. It’s more like the “domino effect”.

Let’s take a look at someone else.

I agree. Race doesn’t have anything to do with addiction. I’ve said ethnic oppression… and NO… I’m NOT using “ethnic oppression” as codespeak for “race,” either.

Guinastasia, do you think YOUR great-grandfather’s experiences in America fit the equation:
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use. If so, MIGHT IT NOT help explain why he drank?

What about the opium wars in China, and their spillover in America amongst the Tong and Chinese immigrants?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

What about the caste system in Brazil that oppresses millions of homeless young people and produces glue-sniffing thieves?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Native Americans and their long troubles with alcoholism?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Poor Appalachian whites and smoking, alcoholism?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Large numbers of blacks who do drugs, who were born into a cycle of generational poverty that BEGAN in slavery and continues?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Homeless runaways of all backgrounds in the Pacific Northwest who do needles, drink alcohol, smoke weed, etc?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Recidivist felons in and out of high-security prisons?
Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Alcoholism in India among the Untouchables (at least prior to the temperence movement there)? Poverty + ethnic oppression + daily stress + personal injustices + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use.

Again, I’m not EXCUSING this behavior, just explaining.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I think my theory is compelling.

The U.S. government should pay reparations out of taxpayers’ funds. This country as a whole long benefited from slave labor; this country as a whole should make reparations.

That it is happening now, so many years later, that the self-deluded descendants of slaveowners think they have no obligation to do the right thing to make up for how their families personally profited from the labor of others and help put things right, is the fault of responsibilty-shirking abolitionist societies, late 19th century Republican government and the damning accomodationist attitudes of Booker T. Washingtion. There was a failure to plan and provide a wider-scale, more structured transition to educate and train freed blacks during Reconstruction – or even the mythical ‘separate but equal’ facilities during the long era of Jim Crow.

I would personally prefer that new taxes, obviously, not be implemented to pay for reparations. Social programs, education and prison reform are three areas where I’d like to see reparations addressed.

…not that I personally BELIEVE me or my descendants will ever SEE dime one, a’course.

Am I out of line to think this debate ought to include what has been done for the black population by the government over the years?

I looked up the actual cost of the Civil War, as linked below, which was $6.2 billion in 1865 costs (although it wasn’t fully accounted for until 1879). In 2001 dollars, that would be $67.5 billion dollars spent to beat the South and officially end slavery. (I’m not sure how you would account for the 330,000 Union soldiers who died.)

http://www.civilwarhome.com/warcosts.htm

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

One could also add in the billions and billions spent on welfare, Medicaid, public housing, etc. that has gone to poor blacks already. I have no way of estimating this amount or the time to search for an estimate, but I’d guess it is higher than the amount spent on the war.

So, I’m not really debating the issue at hand I suppose but I do think the above types of costs should be factored in to the discussion.

You’re so right, Askia. Those damn responsibility shirkers. Not like they fought a war over it or anything.:rolleyes:

At the risk of coming off sounding like a racist pig (which I don’t percieve myself as FTR), perhaps you need to cut this whole country a little slack, Askia.

In a little over 225yrs, it’s gone from a bunch of slave owning, witch burning, Indian killing, servant indenturing, religious outcasts, run by land owning white males; to a country where ANYONE, regardless of gender, race, religion or SAT scores, with the wits and luck to put together a company with a salient product can bend the ear of a national political party, so long as they can afford the appropriate “contributions”.

How long was the Roman Empire around? Keep in mind that history and social evolution both march to a very slow drum. We’ve made a lot of progress, but the work’s not done yet.

Askia, as someone who has debated similar topics here in the past, I applaud you for your deligence. Reparations is a touchy issue and you’re doing your best to keep this from turning into another “those greedy blacks” rant.

I disagree only because the logistics required would essentially make it impossible to acheive–particularly if we’re talking about individual pay-outs.

But I do think there’s something to be said about reparations for the era known as Jim Crow. The lack of direct victims can’t be used as an excuse since there are millions of people still alive who were denied their right to full citizenship, as codefied in law. But I’m doubtful even this will get lip service. By the time people realize Jim Crow reparations–not slavery reparations–are justified and acheivable, it will be too late. Once again, the statute of limitations will be trumped out as an excuse.

A few months ago, I tried to convince folks that just a friggin’ apology from the federal government would be positive and historically meaningful, but I was booed off the stage. That’s why I’ve learned to steer clear of all threads with reparations in the title. The jerkiness in people seems to rise to the surface when we discuss this issue.

Reparations will never happen, and as soon as black America accepts this and moves on, ther better off we will all be. It would be far better if the time and energy spent whining about reparations were spent in encouraging a culture where education is revered, in encouraging a culture in which responsible parenthood is revered, and in avoiding drugs. All these things are difficult, blaming whitey is easy.

Certainly slavery was an evil institution, but America paid for this evil in the blood of its citizens. Who is to say that the person who could have cured Alzheimer’s or cancer was not born because his ancestor died in Antietam? How many widows and orphans were doomed to lives of poverty because the breadwinner was killed in action, in the era before insurances and government benefits were there to ease the burden? If slavery was a bill, I believe it should have been stamped “Paid in Full”, with change due back.

Consider a modern day immigrant from say Vietnam. He comes to our shores not knowing a word of English, yet in 5 years, without any government help, he’ll have his own business and be a positive contributor to our society. In contrast, generations of welfare only beget generations of welfare. Those who demand reparations are saying that they lack the talent to make it on their own, and in so doing condemn their own race.

Want my sympathy? Then how about you start by turning away from charlatans like Farrakhan, who is infinitely more like Arafat than King. How about you condemn those who danced in the streets when the unjust OJ verdict was announced?

I don’t think this is right. Remember, the Rockefeller drug laws were enacted in 1973, about 10-15 years before crack came along. I just took a quick look through Chapter M of the New York Penal Code and didn’t find anything indicating that crack is treated differently under state law.
It’s the federal drug laws that prescribe considerably higher penalties for crack cocaine than for powdered cocaine.

Sua

America fought as hard to keep slavery as it did to abolish it. Your point?

And black people “paid” as well. It wasn’t like Whitey Almighty was the only one that died during the Civil War.

(Where was America when the Tulsa Riots happened? Where was America when little kids were washed down the streets in Memphis by firehoses? Where was America when black people were denied the right to vote for some sixty years? Where was it?)

Yes, I guess all the poor southeast Asians in my neighborhood are just perpetrating a fraud. They actually own BMWs and live in a McMansions.

Believe it or not, many people who advocate reparations are not on welfare. Many–in fact–are comfortably middle class. So it’s not about a bunch of sorelosers whining and complaining. People firmly believe that transgenerational damage was suffered by the descendents of American slaves and this it is great injustice not to receive compensatory damages.

It’s about time you get your ass out of the early 90s and stop acting so fuckin’ self-righteous. Farakan and mutherfreakin’ OJ have absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Your post–particularly the quoted paragraph–is proof positive that sometimes it’s best to lurk.

They are part of America, too. We all lost something. And, no offense, but black soldiers didn’t exactly change the outcome of the war. They helped in a few engagments, but the blood was identivcal to any other soldier.

OJ not, But Farakan, yes. He started this whole question up again t’other day.

And stop cursing.

Thus wrote Askia

I just wonder why we have to wrok “ethnic oppression” into the equation. Why is the equation saying:

Poverty + daily stress + feeling trapped + opportunities to get high = temporary escape through illicit drug use

any less compelling?

Your initial point was that there was a correlation between slavery and drug use today. Do you mean to suggest that WITHOUT slavery, your equation would not work? And if your equation works without slavery, why should it even figure in in the first place?

You’re leaving out the most obvious and most likely possibility:
Perhaps minorities make up a disproportionately large portion of the prison population because they commit a disproportionately large number of crimes. But of course it’s not PC to say that. :rolleyes:

Askia:
You are stretching awfully hard to force race into the picture. It seems almost as if you’re saying that minorities have no choice but to do drugs and steal, since the only difference between poor, oppressed whites and poor, oppressed blacks is skin color. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you don’t really believe that.

Drug laws, etc, are not racist. What’s racist is the claim that they are. “But blacks use drugs, so outlawing drugs is racist!” Subsitute any crime committed largely by any minority, and you have the same statement. “Gang violence is committed by blacks and hispanics, so laws against it are racist!” See?

The bottom line is that all people, regardless of their race, are responsible for their own damn actions. If you don’t want to be prosecuted under the “racist” drug, larceny, and murder laws, then don’t f-ing use drugs, steal, or murder, and you’ve thwarted the evil racist establishment! What a concept.

No matter how poor and oppressed you are, nobody forces you to use drugs. Nobody stops you from working or going to school. And you’re not entitled to free money for what happened to your distant ancestors. Even if you’re black.

Drug use is rampant among people who work on Wall Street, I have heard. A friend who went to Stanford Business School said that drugs were widely used by the MBA students, and that recruiters would give them drugs as a part of an entertainment process.

Algebraically:

money + success + priviledge = drug use

These people deserve reparations!

News flash: The “America” that fought to keep slavery doesn’t exist anymore. It was defeated in war by the current America. The current government is what outlawed slavery.

So does that mean all women are also entitled to land and money? Blacks were able to vote for 40 years before women were. The US fought a war against Mexico and annexed a huge piece of its land. So we should pay out restitution to all Americans of Mexican descent. The US interned a large number of citizens of Japanese descent during WWII. So we owe restitution to all Americans of Japanese ancestry. Chinese were abused and maltreated during the 1800s, so we owe restitution to everybody of Chinese descent. Same for the Irish and Eastern European immigrants.

In fact, Restitution for everybody!! But wait, where the hell does the money come from?

I have an idea: Let’s just all work for our own living and make our own way, without demanding money from each other at every freakin’ turn. How does that sound to you?

And nothing that happened a hundred years ago is going to make me become a thief or a drug addict. That’s just an excuse, and you know it. “Transgenerational damage” my ass.

What does one group’s situation have to do with another?

If these groups can make a claim for reparations, why shouldn’t they be able to do so?

But your point is moot. With the exception of the Japanese Americans, none of the groups you mentioned were enslaved for centuries in the US, their descendents deprived of deserved inheritance. And none of the groups were kept as second class citizens in quite the same way as black Americans. But I’m not expecting you to agree with this.

Yes, because we all know that everyone has been harmed the same way because of certain governmental policies and laws. And everyone has also benefited from these same governmental policies and laws. Everyone has always been treated the same. It’s been that way since Massa Lincoln abolished slavery.

I don’t know why this thread is flat-lined on the criminal/drug thing, but it’s unfortunate at any rate.

Why not sue the governments of Gambia and other West African nations? It was, after all, their tribal leaders who sold slaves to the white traders in the first place. Indeed, according to some accounts, many of them still keep slaves.

I have a question, and I’m serious-I am NOT being snotty:

I have Irish blood. Do I perhaps have some grounds to sue the British government for the fact that my ancestors were driven from their homes? For the fact that they were starved and Britain did nothing, and that many of the problems facing Ireland today can be traced to the Occupation?

Am I the only one laughing their ass off at these consecutive posts.

Hilarious.

Anyways, to move onto the subject of drug use. Askia, your little equation for drug use is just silly. You will find many rich whites indulging in drug use. You will find many college students indulging in drug use. No ethnic oppression there. Not much poverty, either, many times.

As for reparations…I really don’t care either way, although, I think that it will really help the situation very much. Reparations will not make racism go away. Nor will they make the pain of oppression go away. IMHO, if civil rights groups put up as much of a fight to get more investment in inner-cities and rural areas, more funding for schools and more free job training opportunities as they do for reparations and taking down the SC flag, things might actually start to improve.

Wouldn’t public housing and welfare for poor blacks be considered de facto restitution?

I think that the black people wouldn’t bother marching if they realized it’s not them who will get a check. There will be no checks issued to them personally. If slave reparations even happen, which I don’t think it will, the money will be going to different institutions and organizations which will supposedly “help” these people who never knew slavery.