Regarding the blacks marching for reparations tomorrow...

[Squish]

*Originally posted by DMC *
I responded by saying that I did the research you requested of me, found your statement to be in error and responded accordiingly with the results of what I found, namely that most scholarships seem to not be based on ethnicity. Since my research shows me otherwise, and you made the initial claim without any evidence, I’m going to have to ask you to back up the claim. From what I could find, most scholarships are academic or athletic in nature.

I just spent five hours on the internet doing research and found that I was in error in saying “most” scholarships are earmarked for minorities; howsomever, I did find many, many scholarships that were restricted to minorities. In Iowa, for example, which according to the 2000 Census, has a white population of over 93%, 30 general (non-academic, non-athletic) scholarships from the the University of Iowa and Iowa State University are restricted to minority students. George Washington University in the District of Columbia, which has the lowest white population (2000 Census: 30.8%), had pages of minority-specific general scholarships. Although I’d picked five more states to research, by this time I decided there were just too many institutes of higher learning in the country. So while my statement was in error, I still stand by the gist of it, which is that there are many scholarships open to minorities in this country.

It’s not racist to say that whites weren’t brought over on boats to be our slaves.

Indeed it is; first, because it’s in error–as t-keela pointed out–and also because of the use of “our”: on my mother’s side, none of my ancestors were in this country until the 1890s; on my father’s side, although they came here in the 1830s, none of them owned slaves (in fact, damn few of them ever even saw a black person). When you say “our” slaves, you are implying that all white Americans owned slaves or were otherwise involved with slavery and that is simply not true.

[If you are trying to weight the culpability between white slave owners and black tribal chieftans, I’m sure most blacks would be fine with that. I’d be willing to bet that there were a large number of white slave owners for every corrupt chieftan.

Those chieftains were slave owners (and a number of their descendants still are today; read Samuel Charters’ book Roots of the Blues for an eye-opening first person witness of blaves slaves owned by blacks in West Africa in 1991). There were also blacks in the United States who owned black slaves–which again raises the question of a descendant of both a black slave and a black slave-owner paying reparations to himself.

There is not, nor ever was, a monolithic Black America and a monolithic White America in the history of this country.

[kanicbird]

I want a day celebrating the white man ending slavery - A day where former slaves can thank the white man for ending this practice.

I might start a thread about this one.

[zen101]

*Originally posted by k2dave *
**I want a day celebrating the white man ending slavery - A day where former slaves can thank the white man for ending this practice.

I might start a thread about this one. **

While I am in strick opposition to reparations I think your idea of “Thank White Man Day” is about as brilliant as a dynamite suppository.

Why not have a day where spousal abuse victims thank people for not hitting them too? How about days where kids go out and thank people for ceasing to molest them? You don’t celebrate somone doing the right thing. This is just one problem with our society, people expect a pat on the back for doing what they are fucking supposed to do.

Doing the right thing is it’s own reward for someone with any ethics at all. Expecting a thanks for doing what is expected of you is mercenary bullshit.

[Guinastasia]

*Originally posted by smiling bandit *
**So, you think the CIA has nothing better to do than put crack cocaine into black communities? Did I miss something here or what? **

Well, of course they don’t, now that they’re not allowed to overthrow governments and assasinate world leaders. What else are they gonna do with their time?

[Neurotik]

Good Lord. Why do some people seem to think that reparations means that some large thugs will come up and visit every white home and shake them down for money and then divvy it up among black folk?

It’s not about the guilt of your white ancestors, since blacks and Asians and hispanics and, yes, whites will be playing into it. What should matter in this debate is whether corporations and the government should be forced to pay reparations for what was a legal, constitutional and immoral institution. (Just out of curiosity, does ex post facto apply to this situation? Bueller? Bueller?)

Japanese interns during WWII were paid reparations because it was found that their constitutional rights had been violated. That doesn’t factor into the question of slaves, pre-Amendment 13. So let’s get rid of that argument along with the whole “my ancestors weren’t slave-owners” argument, because they are both irrelevent.

The true argument against reparations is that they would be pointless. Would the blacks who received them feel better about slavery and Jim Crow? Would it help to end current racism? Probably not, to either one. Do they distract from the real issues, such as better funding for schools in impoverished areas, job training, investment in impoverished areas, and more sensible drug laws? IMHO, yes.

[zen101]

*Originally posted by monstro *
**
This makes absolutely no sense to me, and I’m not being purposefully snarky. Can you explain again how whites–and only whites–have paid reparations? **

As you can see if you re-read I state nowhere that whites only have paid the price for this loss. In fact, as art and culture are enjoyed globally the entire world has, and continues to pay the price of opression.

Can you tell me how whites only would pay for reparations if they were monetary? No, of course not. You have already stated that ALL citizens would pay, I state that ALL citizens, not only here but abroad as well, have paid.

I state again for the sake of clarity: The legacy of opression is a loss of humanity and culture to the opressed and opressor alike. When you do harm, you are harmed. This does not mean we should open up our jails, or cease using arbiters. Both are tools to prevent further harm or to compensate for genuine material loss. If it was likely that reparations paid today would prevent something from happening, then maybe I’d feel differently. Certainly no money is going to pay for someone’s actual experiences, not in reference to slavery anyhow. And racism exists without slavery ever having been an issue. Having been raised in a Jewish houshold I can honestly tell you that for a people who have never owned slaves, but who have an intimate history with being property, we can be some pretty racist folks when we want to be. Go to Bensonhurst sometime and check out the local history.

What should be recognised is that reparations will not undo anything which has been done in the past, and to realize that we have all lost something to our history.

[monstro]

As you can see if you re-read I state nowhere that whites only have paid the price for this loss. In fact, as art and culture are enjoyed globally the entire world has, and continues to pay the price of opression.

Thanks for clarifying. But if you meant everyone, why didn’t you just say so? That’s why your post was confusing.

I also think it’s a cop-out and a bit disingenous to say the collective psyche of the world has suffered from the effects of slavery and therefore tangible redressal is unnecessary and/or redundant (particularly since you’re equating missing out on a black Whitman or Clemens with real suffering). Even if this is true (and I don’t think it is), this isn’t the same as tangible reparation. Folks who are advocating reparations don’t want pity or empathy–genuine or otherwise. They want their inheritance. They want money or the equivalent.

There are a lot of arguments that I can swallow like:

1. there are no slaves or slaveowners alive

2. the federal government–while allowing their condition and contracting their labor occassionally–did not own slaves.

3. the Great Society was designed–at least to some extent–to address the negative effects of slavery, so subsequent reparations are not needed

and even

4. proving that present-day black Americans are still suffering from the effects of slavery is close to impossible .

But the argument that we’ve all suffered from slavery, so no one owes anyone anything (which sounds like what you’re saying, zen, but I might be wrong) is one that I just can’t get.

[DMC]

Squish,

You said:

Check the scholarships listed online for any major university and you’ll see that there are more scholarships available for ethnic minorities than there are for whites, and that among those that have no minority preference, there are more for females than for males.

…and then you said:

So while my statement was in error, I still stand by the gist of it, which is that there are many scholarships open to minorities in this country.

I’m not sure how you get the same gist out of both statements. Whites are eligible for all scholarships that aren’t targetted at a specific ethnic group. Based on the number of whites in this country, they still get most of the scholarships. I’ll happily agree that there are many scholarships open to minorities in this country. Not nearly enough, in my opinion, but still many.

Indeed it is; first, because it’s in error–as t-keela pointed out–and also because of the use of “our”: on my mother’s side, none of my ancestors were in this country until the 1890s; on my father’s side, although they came here in the 1830s, none of them owned slaves (in fact, damn few of them ever even saw a black person). When you say “our” slaves, you are implying that all white Americans owned slaves or were otherwise involved with slavery and that is simply not true.

I’ve never implied that all whites owned slaves. When I used the word “our”, I meant as Americans, as in this country. Neither I nor anyone in my family placed the Japanese in internment camps, but I still support them being given reparations. We, as in America, did this. This country also supported the slave trade, therefore this country is responsible. Do I expect you to personally pay for it through raised taxes? Nope, there’s plenty of pork in the budget that could use some trimming.

**Those chieftains were slave owners (and a number of their descendants still are today; read Samuel Charters’ book Roots of the Blues for an eye-opening first person witness of blaves slaves owned by blacks in West Africa in 1991). There were also blacks in the United States who owned black slaves–which again raises the question of a descendant of both a black slave and a black slave-owner paying reparations to himself. **

I wouldn’t have a problem with anyone going after any country that has profited from the slave trade, in the past or the present.

[Neurotik]

*Originally posted by DMC *
**I’ll happily agree that there are many scholarships open to minorities in this country. Not nearly enough, in my opinion, but still many. **

Did you mean to actually say, not nearly enough scholarships open ONLY to minorities? Because, AFAIK, the general merit and athletic scholarships are open to everyone from whitey to minorities, while minorities also have scholarships set up just for them. So there are actually MORE scholarships open to minorities than for whites.

No, the problem is not that there aren’t enough scholarships, the problem is underfunding of schools in poor areas. And that effects everyone in that area from whites to blacks to asians to hispanics.

[DMC]

*Originally posted by smiling bandit *
**So, you think the CIA has nothing better to do than put crack cocaine into black communities? Did I miss something here or what? **

While the DOJ didn’t find enough evidence to corroborate the complete story and considers it to be an exaggeration of the facts, they did find some “problems and ambiguities” with the government’s involvement.

[you_with_the_face]

guinstasia:Here’s a little tip: playing the “More Oppressed Than Thou” game doesn’t make one popular around these parts. It also is a game one is bound to lose.

So why are so many people playing it here? In the length of this thread I’ve learned about the sufferings of the Russians, Irish, Vietnamese, Japanese, Polacks, and WASPs, when the topic at hand has NOTHING to do with those groups. It’s about slavery reparations. Not about anybody’s long-dead immigrant great grandfather from east european extraction. One after the other, these red herrings (because that’s what they are) are being thrown into the ring as if they really mean anything. This place is rank with the smell of rotten fish, but some people are too caught up with their own clueless indignation to recognize it.

Why is that when there is a thread that has anything to do with African Americans, people want to start whining about the sufferings of their non-AA ancestors? If you wanna whine about their plight, how 'bout you start your own thread! It is an obnoxious phenomenon that I’m noticing not just here but in many places. And if I read/hear another person say “So should I sue X country for the crap they did to my ancestors” one more time, I think I’ll give up on the human race once and for all. If not for anything else just the lack of originality is enough to make all the dead people in the world do angry cartwheels in their caskets.

And I don’t understand why Askia’s point is so hard for some of you to grasp. All she/he is saying is that oppression (ethnic or otherwise) often leads to poverty which often leads to drug abuse. Where is the controversy? She is not saying it is the sole cause of poverty and she is not saying poverty is the sole cause of drug abuse. She is saying it is major contributing factor. For instance (just in case you still don’t get it), stress doesn’t cause sickness, but it contributes to its development by lowering the body’s defenses. Being treated as second class citizenry often promotes the development of self-destructive behavior, like drug addiction.

Didn’t yall take social studies in the third grade? I’m pretty we learned that the first week.

FTR, I disagree with the reparations movement because I think it is a waste of time. The logistics issue is its major handicap.

[t-keela]

Hey I’m waiting for the checks to start rolling.

Like I said before, my ancestral grandfather was sold into slavery in Ireland in the 1750’s and was brought to America against his will. He was indentured until the American Revolution where he fought and was given his freedom. Many indentured slaves “debts” were carried on to the offspring. The owners would charge interest and room and board and work the dog piss out of the whole family. It was a crime to try and escape your servitude and would be severely punished if caught.

He should have been paid if this country hadn’t allowed slavery, right?
I figure at minimum wage x 40 hrs./wk + OT + holidays + interest for 225 yrs.= $1,000000000000?

Plus my gggrandmother was an indian, oooweee talk about reparation checks, I’ll be set forever!

Cut me a check for a million bucks and I’ll be happy!

[you_with_the_face]

After re-reading my post, it occured to me that I should have said Poles instead of Polacks. Please forgive me.

[Squish]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by DMC *
I’ll happily agree that there are many scholarships open to minorities in this country. Not nearly enough, in my opinion, but still many.
As I made my original statement based on anecdotal and personal experience and my later research proved it wrong, I will concede the original point to you, but I don’t understand this apparently contradictory statement of yours. There are, as far as I know (and ye gods, I’ve done enough research today that I’m not going to attempt it again), NO scholarships that are denied to minorities except for those that are endowed for the descendents of a particular family or ethnic group (and even then, a black descendant of that family of a black, say, Italian-American, would still be eligible).

**I’ve never implied that all whites owned slaves. When I used the word “our”, I meant as Americans, as in this country. **

I wish you had clarified that before, but even so, how does that use of “our” fit Americans who arrived here long after the last slave ship run was made?

Do I expect you to personally pay for it through raised taxes? Nope, there’s plenty of pork in the budget that could use some trimming.

Call me a cynic, but politicians get elected on the basis of how much pork they can secure for their districts, and the federal government is far more likely to raise taxes than to cut any of that precious pork.

**I wouldn’t have a problem with anyone going after any country that has profited from the slave trade, in the past or the present. **

And here is where we part ways. Individuals have certainly profited, but a country is a collective of individuals, many of whom did not. My “sue Gambia” suggestion was intended to be a comment on the absurdity of assessing liability to those individuals.

Neurotik, you asked:

Why is that when there is a thread that has anything to do with African Americans, people want to start whining about the sufferings of their non-AA ancestors?

This and the concurrent BBQ Pit thread are the only ones I’ve participated in that had to do specifically with black Americans. In this thread, some of us are pointing our the hardships endured by our immigrant ancestors as a way of questioning the fairness of assigning reparations for injuries long gone (the specific issue of slavery–I consider the denial of civil rights that some have brought up as irrelevant as you consider the experiences of the immigrants). In my case, I was refuting Aksia’s equation, which I still think is flawed.

Now, is there anyone here who’s Lithuanian? You owe me money on behalf of my Russian ancestors for the pain, suffering and sheer humiliation of being invaded by Lithuania!.

[you_with_the_face]

[Q]squish:
In this thread, some of us are pointing our the hardships endured by our immigrant ancestors as a way of questioning the fairness of assigning reparations for injuries long gone (the specific issue of slavery–I consider the denial of civil rights that some have brought up as irrelevant as you consider the experiences of the immigrants).[/Q]

All long as the plaintiffs can prove how the purported crime (in this case, slavery) negatively impacted their life, what do the atrocities done to other people have to do with anything ? If we were discussing the merits of civil lawsuits against cigarette companies, should the fact that there are no lawsuits against alcohol companies enter the debate? Why not? The right answer is because the two things are apple and oranges. And they have nothing to do with each other.

The biggest problem I have with the “my great-great-grandfather was a Russian” argument is that you are talking about someone who was not an American to begin with. The atrocities of your downtrodden ancestor happened on foreign soil unprotected by a constitution full of promises of freedom and equality and rights. So pointing out what happened in some other country hundreds of years ago does nothing to support why reparations for American slavery is unreasonable.

[Q]Now, is there anyone here who’s Lithuanian? You owe me money on behalf of my Russian ancestors for the pain, suffering and sheer humiliation of being invaded by Lithuania!.[/Q]

It’s like hearing nails on a chalkboard. Can someone–ANYONE-- come up with an original quip!

[t-keela]

Neurotic- “So why are so many people playing it here? … I’ve learned about the sufferings of the Russians, Irish, Vietnamese, Japanese, Polacks, and WASPs, when the topic at hand has NOTHING to do with those groups. It’s about slavery reparations.”

So ONLY African Americans can be considered when discussing slave reparations? I got news for ya’. If this happens and I highly doubt it will. There’s gonna be a whole lot more than just black folks wanting some money.

How many non-black people have a claim as well? That can of worms is going to include practically everyone who tries hard enough to get a piece.

Hell yeah, let’s write some checks and break this fucking country but good! 'cause everybody’s gonna want one.

I’ve got good friends from several nationalities. CLOSE FRIENDS grew up w/ 'em lived,ate,slept,partied w/em . None of the people I know think this is right or justified. They are smart enough to know that the world isn’t always a fair place (especially 200 yrs/ago) and this is not good for anyone.

NOTICE: Let it be known, I do solemnly apologize to any and all persons whose ancestors were enslaved in this country, between the years 1776-1865. Whether my ancestors did or did not add to their abuse is beside the point. These descendants deserve, at the very least, an apology which is too late coming but at least it’s a start. Since I can not make restitution the the actual persons to whom I refer. I willingly give all the wealth gained by my ancestors (at their expense) to these poor wretched souls who have been unable to rise above the oppression bestowed upon their heritage.

I solemnly swear my sincere undying sorrow to those who feel this NOTICE applies to them. This day 8/20/02, T-Keela:(

just waiting on those checks to start rollin’

[Belowjob]

What’s really fun about reparations threads is the opportunity they provide for people to vent their hostility towards black Americans. Also the overreaching attempts to compare mild social prejudice against various European immigrant groups to the centuries long abuse and persecution of black Americans.

Invariably at least one white person will make an argument to the effect that black people aren’t really Americans, that racially based chattel slavery was really a stroke of good luck, that slavery was all the Africans fault anyway.

As I’ve said before, I oppose reparations for practical reasons. They would take resources away from more pressing issues that should be addressed today. It also won’t do a great deal of good to give relatively small sums of money to people who are collectively one of the world’s richer nations (black America’s GDP is roughly 500 billion a year).

The hateful, convoluted arguments of the anti-reparationists have a way of pushing me into the pro-reparations camp, practicality be damned.

Once more, with feeling: black Americans are not Africans, so the status of Africans is irrelevant to the issue. Black Americans are a mixture of African, Native American and European ancestry. Black Americans fought in all of Americas wars, and their labor literally built the country.

The legal case for slavery reparations is almost impossible to make. Slavery was legal at the time that it was practiced, and nearly all of the people who were born into slavery died before 1970.

The legal case for reparations for Jim Crow is much stronger, because these were injustices perpetrated against American citizens that were both unconstitutional and in many cases, illegal. There are about 15 million black Americans living who suffered under Jim Crow.

It makes more sense to address the problems arising out of the century long (1865 - 1964) denial of citizenship rights and equality before the law, than it does to focus exclusively on the injustice itself. We have to acknowledge the injustice, and then continue to address the immediate problems facing poor black people.

One good way to acknowledge the injustice, is a ** National Monument to the Underground Railroad**. I prefer an approach focused on the ending of slavery, rather than one which tends to wallow in the misery of that tragic history

Because the UGR involved whites and free blacks cooperating with each other, often at great risk to themselves. Because many of the participants in the UGR were Christians who took on the risk out of spiritual duty, in defiance of the government. Because the work of the UGR helped undermine slavery as an economic and social institution, helping to precipitate the crisis that led ultimately to the end of slavery. Because independent individuals working together to fight state supported injustice is very much in the best spirit of America.

In theory, a national monument to the UGR, with a corresponding museum that documents in detail the injustices of slavery and Jim Crow, should be acceptable to most Americans.

[december]

*Originally posted by Belowjob *
**What’s really fun about reparations threads is the opportunity they provide for people to vent their hostility towards black Americans. **

I agree with this statement, aside from the odd word “fun”. Sadly, the quest for reparations automatically produces this sort of hostility because it pits one race against another.

[Neurotik]

*Originally posted by t-keela *
Neurotic- "So why are so many people playing it here? … I’ve learned about the sufferings of the Russians, Irish, Vietnamese, Japanese, Polacks, and WASPs, when the topic at hand has NOTHING to do with those groups. It’s about slavery reparations."

Liar. I never said that. And my name is spelled with a k not a c. But I will adress the rest of your post anyway.

So ONLY African Americans can be considered when discussing slave reparations? I got news for ya’. If this happens and I highly doubt it will. There’s gonna be a whole lot more than just black folks wanting some money.

In this country? From slave reparations? I doubt it. Except maybe Amerindians, and I think they fully deserve reparations. More so than blacks, actually.

So to answer your question…yes, in this country, only blacks can be considered when discussion slave reparations since they are the only racial group (except Amerindians) who suffered from it. Is this really that difficult?

How many non-black people have a claim as well? That can of worms is going to include practically everyone who tries hard enough to get a piece.

As far as I know, no non-blacks have a claim on the US government or corporations to provide them with reparations for slavery. The situation may be different in other countries, but since we are discussing the US, no other racial group have a claim in slave reparations (except maybe Amerindians).

Hell yeah, let’s write some checks and break this fucking country but good! 'cause everybody’s gonna want one.

Want slave reparations? Like who?

**I’ve got good friends from several nationalities. CLOSE FRIENDS grew up w/ 'em lived,ate,slept,partied w/em . None of the people I know think this is right or justified. They are smart enough to know that the world isn’t always a fair place (especially 200 yrs/ago) and this is not good for anyone. **

That’s nice. I’ve got good friends from several nationalities, too. CLOSE FRIENDS. Grew up with them. Lived, ate, slept, partied with them. They are smart enough to know that the world isn’t always a fair place (especially 200 years ago) but that doesn’t absolve us of trying to correct past injustices.

I don’t agree with reparations for several reasons. Many of them I’ve outlined in this thread. I’ve seen lots of good arguments on both sides of the debate. You’ve prodided neither.

[smiling_bandit]

What’s really fun about reparations threads is the opportunity they provide for people to vent their hostility towards black Americans.

I’d also like to thank you for implying that I and anyone else who opposes reperations is racist. Please watch what you type.

Also the overreaching attempts to compare mild social prejudice against various European immigrant groups to the centuries long abuse and persecution of black Americans.

BS. It isn’t an attempt - its a success. And there was by no means only “mild social prejudice”. Go stuff it if you aren’t willing to learn some history.