Well, duh: the point is that American media creates idealized fictional characters with this kind of “reluctant warrior” attitude because that’s the sort of character Americans admire and value in themselves.
Sorry if Temporary_Name and I didn’t explain that sufficiently clearly.
I get that. What I’m saying is that those sorts of characters may be admirable and work well in movies, but they may not always be so effective in real life – especially when there is no limit to how low the other side will stoop.
Not always, no, of course not. But, for example, that attitude of clear-eyed principled magnanimity was pretty effective for Abraham Lincoln, who AFAICT is one of the original sources of the American “reluctant warrior” self-image.
… died 156 years ago!
Hey, I wish you were right, I really do. I wish the dignity and competence of Obama and Biden could win against the cruelty and batshit insanity coming from the other side, but we’re clinging to control by our fingernails at the national level and getting battered at the state and local levels.
Even Captain America knows when to take the gloves off.
Very well said, I cannot improve upon this at all.
I will add that there have been examples of nonviolent people being successful resisting and eventually overcoming tyranny by being a different kind of tough, through endurance. The civil rights marchers who took abuse but refused to resort to the tactics of their oppressors is a good example and (it seems they are linked as I have never heard mention of one example without the other being mentioned) of course Gandhi used passive resistance to throw off the entire British Empire.
Tough and kind are not polar opposites, I was introduced to this concept in a parenting class titled Positive Discipline. One can be tough and kind or tough and unkind- likewise one can be passive and kind or passive and unkind. What I am advocating is not becoming what we hate, not using the weapons of those who we despise for being loathsome. When we do we become loathsome ourselves. What is the sense of winning when both sides are evil and vile and deserve no respect??? The winners are always also the evil empire in that case.
For me, the real irony is that many, many on the right use their “Lord and Savior” as an example of leadership – but they had to re-write the script. Jesus was the epitome of strength through passive resistance but they insist upon making him (or Him) into a fire breathing warrior when that is the polar opposite of His message.
So there are your real life examples, and there is a principle that I think is worth preserving. Yes, we need to be tough and show resistance. We do NOT have to use the same tools they use. Ask yourself how to combat the Republicans without becoming the Republicans.
I can see that my lengthy reply has put this post in a past tense situation, but that is my next point. Real change takes time and is largely incremental. One of the problems with modern living not just in this country but everywhere is the shortsightedness of living for the next quarter or election cycle. Please try to set your goals (even theoretically) for the long term. Think about the world in twenty and fifty and a hundred years. Then, only then, select the methods and tools you want to use to accomplish those long term goals.
Lastly, I am just superstitious enough to not want to mention the bi-partisan Infrastructure Bill. I never thought it would pass the Senate and I bet no one else did either. It is not completely done but it is much further and more successful than we could dreamed a year ago. Let’s see if holding to our own principles doesn’t work in the future. I think it is worth a shot.
Are you trying to argue that Obama and Biden have faced worse levels of “cruelty and batshit insanity coming from the other side” than Lincoln had to deal with?
Because if so, well, I’m not sure, man.
This is true, but does point out one pretty big risk with this posture. To get those numbers you need massive support for mask mandates (and also vaccine mandates) amongst independent voters. And I would hazard to guess that those are likely located in the suburban districts that swung pretty hard from the GOP in 2020.
So the big question is: will opposing local mask mandates hurt state-wide office-seekers in general elections in 2022? I suppose they are hoping it will be old news by then, at least with general-election voters, or perhaps that the partisan gap in their state is enough to carry them through.
No, but if we’re using Lincoln as an example, he did hit the other side pretty hard, and he wasn’t afraid to call out their evil.
No, I hope we don’t have to resort to their level of disregard for the law and basic humanity. But I hope Dem candidates in the '22 elections aren’t afraid to call their opponents what they are: liars, hypocrites, accessories to hundreds of thousands of deaths and – when appropriate – traitors.
And nobody’s saying at all that modern Democrats shouldn’t do that. Quite the contrary, as per posts #67 and #70, for example.
All that’s being argued here is simply that we don’t want that kind of determination, principle and honesty to be obscured by self-aggrandizing swaggering about “going macho” and “kicking ass” and “having testicles”.
That’s precisely the sort of juvenile fake-manliness posturing that the other side has been using as a substitute for actual policy and principles, and we shouldn’t be trying to duplicate it.
Fine, no argument here.
Okay, you and I agree here. I just hope they can remain composed and “statesman” like while doing so. As much as I have personally invested in the next cycle-- I would rather have an ideal twenty years from now than a short term win followed by them having an opposite short term win, repeat for infinity.
Here, I want to split hairs. I would say that in actual history Lincoln had more cruelty to deal with as there is nothing quite like a shooting war to define an era. But I will further comment that while the southern gentlemen were dealing from a flawed point of view (supporting slavery) – it at least existed in their reality. I do not believe Lincoln had to deal with insanity using the definition of denying reality as much as our current president does. There are people claiming absolutely crazy, insane, unfounded, and incomprehensible nonsense. Even Rand Paul, a physician and nominal expert at health cannot grasp the basic science of our situation at the moment. Many of his fellow registered Republican voters are even further around the bend.
My point is that this situation is both unique to this time requiring new and innovative thinking – and familiar and subject to tried and true solutions. The artistry is in blending those two realities and being fluid enough to know when to stick with the tried and true and when to try the new and bold. My guiding light would be to be sure not to abandon your own principles or you become the enemy and I cannot comprehend an insult worse than: “You remind me of, Lindsey Graham/Mitch McConnell/Donald Trump/Matt Gaetz/ MTG/Bobert/Etc./Etc./Etc.”
Here, hear !! (or whatever the phrase actually is- my illiteracy strikes again! Here, here? Hear, hear?)
When the followers of a party become so invested in the ideology or the platform, that is when they sacrifice their soul and lose the eventual battle. It is worse for the Republicans because they have no platform, just the knee jerk reaction of Trump to rally around.
Last thought which is related from my point of view but perhaps only tangentially:
After World War Two, we had the highest tax brackets AND the greatest and most booming economy in our history. We were far from isolationist embracing even our former enemies and rebuilding their nations and economies. We totally “kicked ass” by being kind and fair minded, not by closing our borders, or cutting taxes, or focusing on ‘America First’. Robbing a bank to give the money to charity is not an ideal solution- it does not forgive the crime or justify it. As the party of the left, let us please avoid the robbing the bank portion but keep the donating to charity portion of the example the right has provided. (Wow is that a lame example!! But I believe the point is made.)
I dunno. Have you seen some of the absolutely crazy, insane, unfounded, and incomprehensible nonsense promulgated by Lincoln’s detractors? Like the 1864 Democratic “false flag” attack to spread the claim that Lincoln and other Republicans were advocating mass racial intermarriage for the purpose of creating an American super-race?
Even modern QAnon-type nutbaggery is not necessarily more far-fetched or credulous or unscrupulous than some of the stuff 19th-century political journalism got up to.
Yes, this is the traditionally correct form of the expression: originally “hear ye, hear ye”, a sort of early modern “anti-heckle” to convey agreement with the speaker’s remarks.
Wow! No I was not familiar with this story. I do not recognize the source but will agree it really happened. That is some pretty blatant and underhanded dealing there. It makes me wonder if it grew out of a slippery slope argument like I hear from all my Republican associates. The logical conclusion of _______ is _______. (taxes/recession, immigration/loss of sovereignty, mask mandates/end of all freedoms, gun control/confiscating all firearms). It is very rare to meet a Republican in my neighborhood who does not believe that any portion of any Democratic initiative will, if passed, spiral into disaster within weeks.
Thank you. I hope I can remember this lesson, it makes perfect sense. It seems so obvious now that I know the correct answer.
Sure he can. He’s spouting shit he knows isn’t true.
Yeah, I bet the GOP has all their chips on COVID being old news by 2022. They are betting very few people will actually lose kids to the disease, obviously those folks will never vote GOP again. It’s worth the risk if the pandemic comes to an end. The link between schools not masking and sickness in adults in the community is probably too nuanced for the general public to take into the voting booth. And again Abbott has a positive approval rating on the economy, despite the pandemic.
The main risk here is that uh, without mask and vaccine mandates I don’t think the pandemic will end.
~Max
You may be right, but it seems to me that his ideology is far, far too loud in his own ear and he cannot comprehend anything that contradicts those beliefs.
Because of the care of a loved one I was forced to learn a great deal about brain development. It turns out there are two separate thought processes your brain can use. They are separate and have completely different functions. One is very deliberate and contemplative, it is made for making important decisions over time. The other is highly reactionary, made for flight or fight situations and does not include actual thinking but reactions to threats.
Most of my associates who remain registered Republicans can only seem to use the ‘flight or fight’ system where politics are concerned. They go by their gut feelings, so reactionary knee jerk reactions are the deepest thought they seem capable of. Even people who helped raise me or whom I have known for forty years – people I went to college with and whom I know are capable of deeper thoughts can only use the one system it seems.
Perhaps Paul is playing a part for personal or political gain. But my friends and family are not that nuanced, they are not that complex. They really believe and they really believe because they are afraid of any none believer having ANY political power. The ones who will still sit down and discuss things with me can be maneuvered into admitting certain facts — but at a certain point they overreact and storm out upsetting the tea cart because we (the Socialist left) are opposing GOD Himself!!
Just recently I had this phone exchange:
“friend”: You just said a bunch of stuff that sounds true, but . . .
me: What do you disagree with? Perhaps we can discuss particulars . .
“friend”: All I know is that Jesus is on His Throne and He wants . . .
me: And HE was outsmarted by Dominion software???
“friend”: See! You have been duped by all this science talk and “The Enemy” (Satan) has taken hold of your heart . .
me: And you believe Fauci has an agenda other than protecting public health??
“friend”: Of course! He wants to . . .
And of course it goes on and on; this friend was quite distant when we saw each other in person at a funeral last weekend. He said exactly this: "Temporary, I love you man, but you just . . . " Never finished the sentence then walked away. He has a force field, a shield around his beliefs and he CANNOT consider anything that violates his biases-- CANNOT! It seems to me that Senator Paul is guilty of the same type of bias- one that will cause the space/time continuum to cease to exist for him if it is challenged.
And did what with it? What great benefits are we reaping from the historical democratic win? They are still subservient to the republican party.
You barely squeaked out the tiniest win against one of the most blatantly evil and incompetent people on Earth in a pathetic victory. You then did nothing to reward the people who got out to vote for you by making anything better for them, aside from the competent vaccine rollout. So no one feels like they won anything, and it’s going to be hard to motivate them to get them to vote for you again and again not have anything happen that makes their lives better. The best you have to offer is “we’ll make your life worse more slowly”
You put off the end of American democracy for two years. There was a blatant coup attempt in front of everyone, and jack shit is being done about it. Republicans who acknowledge the very obvious and simple truth that Biden won the election are excommunicated from the party and the democrats are doing nothing about it. States are enacting new voter suppression laws and ignore-election-results powers to state governments and you’re doing nothing.
At best, you’re saying “nice doggie, be a good doggie” with your dying breath while a pit bull is clamping down around your neck.
I’m amazed you feel like you’re winning anything.
And Abraham Lincoln went to war. You know, the biggest dick waving contest there is.
If you actually had some way that you thought just being nice would somehow win, I might listen. But your only argument was “I’m tired of it.” Well, most of America is tired of a Democratic Party that chickens out and doesn’t fight back. Unlike Lincoln.
Did you forget that Lincoln suspended habeus corpus? You know, a move out of the authoritarian playbook. Do I think we need to that now? No. But trying to paint Lincoln as this saint who was nice to everyone when he went to war is ridiculous.
Everyone and their dog is saying that we will lose big in this 2022 election, if we follow the conventional rules. So, get this, what if we didn’t? What if we actually fight?
I’m hoping what Texas has done will help. I’m hoping how Republicans are still hanging on with the antimaskers will help. But I wish there would have been this huge ad campaign for how brave it is to wear a mask. How American it is to get your shot.
I know that we don’t care for this hypermasculine messaging, but there are a lot of people that do, and we need to stop ceding them to the other side. A good party will appeal to everyone, not just the people they consider ideologically pure enough.
Lincoln definitely had it worse, but he also dealt with it much more effectively.
Calling Rand Paul a physician is yet another example of denial of reality. The only sense in which he’s a physician is that he says he is. No, literally. The “board” that “certified” him is a board that he himself created for that purpose.
Agreed - “Dr Paul” is as much of a doctor as Dr. Johnny Fever.
A very brief google search indicates he did graduate from Duke University School of Medicine, and that he was a Certified Member of the American Board of Ophthalmology before starting his sham National Board.
I will readily admit that his credentials are sketchy, but it is unfair to say he simply deemed himself to be a doctor. He has training, graduated and was board certified by the actual sanctioning board before he started his own board. It is further obvious that he has no training or understanding of immunology above the most basic facts taught in sixth grade, but he does seem to be a doctor of some competence.
One more thing; long ago I was reading some history that indicated that Surgeons and Doctors at one time were not considered of the same nature at all and the training and preparation for the position were completely divorced from each other. That essentially surgeons were as likely to be carpenters as medical professionals and only recently (last hundred and fifty to two hundred years) were surgeons required to have any medical training at all. If you want to claim Paul is a “sawbones” with a limited “medical” background, even that is thwarted by his graduation from Duke.
As tempting as your claim is to believe, if we are going to live in reality it is necessary we admit he is a licensed physician who graduated from a medical school with him certifying himself being noted. There is no need to demonize him any further than he has demonized himself by his own comments. I do not want to be guilty of confirmation bias any more than I want the right to be guilty of that flaw.
And as I said above, this is based upon two quick sources in almost no time. If my sources have false information I will be happy to consider new information.
Johnny was most certainly a ‘spin’ doctor (especially during the vinyl era).