Appealing to their humanity doesn’t work. Appealing to their self interest may. Explaining how their attempts at hurting others will hurt them is the only possibility to get them to change their minds.
It’s far more effective than whatever it is you are trying to do. All you do is alienate people on your own side by screaming at them that they aren’t doing things the way that you want them to.
Really? He’s the one that proposed the idea that you say is "a fucking stupid idea, there is no need for it, nobody is asking for this, it doesn’t fix anything, fuck the fuckity off with your stupid fucking idea” and is defending it.
Does he have genocidal intent? I don’t know what his intent is. But he is defending those that do and advocating for the policies they put out.
Odd that the only ones that you have issue with are the ones that are pushing back against, "a fucking stupid idea, there is no need for it, nobody is asking for this, it doesn’t fix anything, fuck the fuckity off with your stupid fucking idea”, but you are 100% fine with those who propose it.
But you’re the one who slung the false accusation that: “There’s no hope of making them see The Other as humans to be respected, that ship sailed long ago.” AFAICT, that was a — what’s the phrase? — a fucking stupid idea, to so personalize it with so false a claim.
As I see it, a new law about subjecting school athletes to a gender-ID test - WHATEVER form it takes, is essentially a deterrence messaging measure: if you’re a trans girl, better not even bother trying out because you stand to be subject to indignity and humiliation on demand (as noted, it leaves it to the organizers to figure out method and quantum of proof).
And when you think about it, it just adversely affects girls in general , because I suspect what is likely to happen more often is that the “mean girls” at school or the jealous parents of other girls or even random “concerned citizens” will be making harassing complaints that there’s something “not normal” with some girl they don’t like.
“It doesn’t matter if she’s not, we want to make her have to deny it” , to use the famous political quote.
…
The really sad/scary part of all this is that this is not something that is some sort of freak-fringe nuissance a-la-Westboro/Phelps. This is something encouraged or at least acquiesced to by enough people to elect its proponents to school boards and legislatures.
As with bathroom bills, trans women will be excluded from being able to use public facilities (bathrooms, sports) at all, and it will be open season to harass cis women who look insufficiently feminine. Gender conformity for all. 
Back in my sports physical days, it included a hernia check (“turn your head and cough while I press on your testical” (I assume there is something similar for women)).
What appears to be different now is that the type of genital will apparently be reported to someplace that has no need to know.
No nothing of the sort for my daughters, their playing years were 2005-15. In fact free sports physicals were offered to to all athletes at the school done by the female athletic trainer on campus. Nobody had to strip down. IIRC it’s not that rigorous of a physical. Basic history taken and vitals checked.
Between my wife, daughter and I we have participated in over 50 seasons of organized sports, which required dozens of physicals none of which involved anyone except our respective PCPs checking anything.
The leopards will never eat their faces, silly.
You can’t win them over with logic. Their hate is visceral, not reasoned. Appealing to them in any way is a fool’s errand. Just fight them where you can.
…I refuse to debate the right of trans people to exist. I’m not going to do it myself, and if you do it in front of me I’ll tell you to shut the fuck up as well. And I’m not concerned about alienating you. Because you’ve got a personal problem with me no matter what I say.
Yep.
Its really easy to tell those who have been radicalised to those who are just having an argument on the internet. And for the latter, sometimes telling them to shut the fuck up is enough. And if they are secretly the former, (which I don’t believe Waldo Pepper to be) then telling them to shut the fuck up has the added benefit of no longer seeing those arguments here. This place has been orders of magnitude better since we stopped having that debate.
You know, that means a lot to me. For what it’s worth, I’d always thought of trans people the way I thought of gay people — in it-neither-breaks-my-leg-nor-picks-my-pocket terms — but, having known any number of them for years in real life, it’s impossible for me to just shrug in the abstract, to just think well, yeah, they, uh, have the same rights as I do, to free speech and jury trials and all that other stuff. Instead, there’s a face and a name and a voice and a person — times five or times ten — that I’ve come to genuinely care about.
(Of course, that shouldn’t make a philosophical difference; after all, having met non-trans people who aren’t warm and easy to get along with sure as hell hasn’t soured me on perfunctory questions about their basic rights. But I gotta admit that ideology sometimes gets overshadowed by something personal and human, even if it still winds up in the same place.)
You assume wrong. Women are not routinely checked for hernias because they are much less likely to occur in young women than young men due to the different internal architecture.
Certainly, when I did sports in high school there was a physical but no examination of the groin, genitals, crotch, or pelvic area.
…what I would humbly ask you to do, is to imagine what the debate we were having in this thread would look like in their eyes. Because we have no skin in the game. But for those that do? We don’t need to talk about their rights in the abstract. America is about a year and a half behind the UK. The goal for them is just to keep having this debate. To keep shifting the window until those in the middle decide to compromise. Then they keep moving the line again.
But in places like the UK you’ve basically got three major parties, the Conservatives, Labour, and the Greens who have fully embraced gender critical ideology. Where the debate about “well maybe we should have an all sports category” lead to there was a shift in what people considered “normal.” And while the people almost overwhelmingly support trans people, the people with power are wielding that power to remove trans people from everyday life.
People here are going to assume you were arguing in bad faith because they are surrounded by it, because people are really fucking scared, and because I’m not kidding about genocidal intent.
I actually thought you were arguing in good faith. Its just that your argument is really fucking stupid 
Because nobody is asking for this. Its a compromise solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. In 2018 there were only 50 trans athletes in female sports teams at the collegiate level. Only 50. That isn’t worth :: waves hands :: all of this. We don’t need to debate this any more. We just need to fight it. There is no middle ground.
Yes, that’s the thing. For practical purposes, there aren’t any trans athletes who matter to anyone but themselves. The only reason it gets into the news is because it’s one of the few areas where transphobes can argue, “hey, these biological differences really matter” without obviously looking like transphobes. And they can get other people to be talking about exactly the issues that make trans people uncomfortable. And it’s all theoretical. And oh so reasonable. And so completely meaningless. It’s pointless to build policy around a handful of people, any handful of people. But by bringing it up you can coax completely decent people to talk about the stuff that interests trans phobes. It’s a trap I’ve fallen into in the past. I’ll probably fall into it again. But it’s just a trap.
…gosh, we all fell for it in the old JK Rowling thread. I spent way too many hours arguing in that. It was probably that thread, more than anything else, that radicalised me.
Its the reasonableness of the position that is the gateway. “Its about protecting women.” “Children shouldn’t be making these decisions.” “We need to protect our spaces.” I’ve seen people become radicalised from these starting positions. It’s terrifying to watch. Watching it happen in real time with YWTF and monstro was just horrible. They were two of my favourite posters here on the dope. And by the time they both left, they seemed like completely different people.
And to be crystal clear: @The_Other_Waldo_Pepper isn’t on that path, IMHO. I think at a different time, in a different political environment, with the world in a very different place, we could have a reasonable discussion about “open to all” categories in sports, and how you could make that happen.
But right now it needs to be recognized that there is a global movement to push trans people out of everyday life. Ban them from bathrooms. Ban them from sports. Ban them from getting the healthcare that they need. And they are winning. The new rules proposed by the Biden administration this week contains enough concessions to the gender-extremists that it isn’t exactly a “win” for them, but it was enough for me to be worried about what concessions they will make in the future.
And in the UK, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the organization that "promotes and upholds equality and human rights ideals across England, Scotland and Wales, this week published a letter “largely advocating for sex to be defined as biological sex” in UK equalities law. The organization that is supposed to protect and fight for the rights of trans people, now advocates for a position that would make it easier to exclude trans women from womens sports and single-sex spaces.
And the Conservatives, the Labour Party, and the Greens all basically came out this week and said “you know? That seems fine.”
So I’m going to get grumpy when people try to re-litigate that debate over again here. The laws need to be fought. Trans people need to be protected.
I’d venture to say the grand total of of cis men pretending to be women so they can get a sports title is exactly zero. As you say, this is a facade to cover the Qliban’s real intent.
Ignorance fought and thanks.
Yeah, once rights in general are properly secured and established, we may legit discuss case-specific application. For a brief time there it may have looked like things were moving in a direction to allow us to start thinking about that, but the ongoing backlash is far harsher than many of us expected.
“We have people that live among us today on planet earth that are happy to display themselves as if they were mutants from another planet,” Barnaby said during Monday’s hearing in the House Commerce Committee. “This is the planet earth, where God created men male and women female.”
…
“The lord rebuke you, Satan, and all of your demons and all of your imps who come parade before us,” Barnaby said. “That’s right, I called you demons and imps, who come and parade before us and pretend that you are part of this world.”
There’s really no reason they should have been; as I said yesterday, they - or at least a significant part of them that the rest can hardly be unaware of - consider transgendered people to be abominations. It isn’t even a question of Barnaby saying the quiet part out loud, they say it out loud all the time. The only difference is that he said it in the state congressional chamber.