I don’t think anyone does take the position that there should be no restrictions on trans women competing against cis women; if such people do exist, it’s an extreme fringe position.
All sporting regulatory bodies have established guidelines, which generally require that the athlete has been on hormone therapy long enough that she should no longer have a competitive advantage against cis women. Of course, some feel those guidelines don’t go far enough, but it’s not the case that the issue is being completely ignored and that everyone’s self-identification is just accepted without question.
Right, but again - the point of my comment was to address the accuracy of your analogy in this narrow respect. Here you’re agreeing with me that the analogy with prejudice against Black people (where obviously nothing but a hard line of total equality is appropriate) does not hold up with respect to sports participation.
Fair enough, but I don’t think that there are many who do.
I mean, there will always be someone who does, and they tend to get nutpicked out of the crowd by transphobes and amplified, but the overwhelming majority of transgendered and their allies completely accept reasonable restrictions on sports participation.
Now, they don’t as a whole accept complete prohibition on participation, but that’s not nearly the same thing, and that’s the line that many transphobes take.
This is kind of a hijack, but I can’t let it pass. Filmore is under the impression that there are deaf parents trying to get their hearing kids surgically deafened in order to fit in better with their community, that there is a “community” encouraging this, and that doctors exist who are willing to perform such surgeries? I’m gonna need some cites there.
But at the very least shouldn’t we consider compromise legislation that would make it illegal for a black man to marry a white woman who he got so hopped up on the loco reefer that she didn’t know what she was doing. I mean you can’t honestly say a black man has the right to do that.
Isn’t this covered by the part where the minister asks if anyone has any objections to the marriage? I believe “hopped up on loco reefer” is one of the officially recognized objections, at least in Alabama.
Yes the point strategy is to conflate the two issues, so that when the average person hears about transition related care for minors, they think penises being cut off. So when Democrats oppose the legislation they can be portrayed as supporting the castration 5 year old boys if they play with a doll. I’m not actually sure that DeSantis and his ilk really care one way or another whether trans gender youth do or don’t get hormone care. The youth are just pawns to be used in a misinformation campaign to demonize the left.
Also, from what I understand hormone treatment isn’t done until puberty (which starts for most children between the ages of 10-12). Doctors aren’t prescribing these things for 5-year-olds. (Not that I see anyone claiming otherwise, but I figured the info should be put out there.)
And this isn’t casually done. “Mommy, all the kids my age in this neighborhood are girls, I don’t like being the only boy. Can I be a girl like them?”
“Of course dear, let’s call Dr. Robinowicz and see if we can get an appointment this weekend. I’m sure he’ll have some medicine that will make you better.”
“Oh boy! A magic pill that’ll make me a girl like all my friends!”
These are serious decisions that can affect a person for their entire lifetime. It’s not something done on a whim. I believe there is a long evaluation and consultation period before anything is started.
If you are wrong? It behooves you to stop spreading hateful bullshit. From what source did you get those assumptions from, and why don’t you go after them for telling lies?
DeSantis is a fascist. Fascism relies on fetishization of the male form and male supremacy in order to reinforce the authority of the Leader, and that means punishing men who fail to assert their masculinity in the prescribed manner, let alone reject it entirely. It’s not a coincidence that the Nazis cracked down on tramsgender studies when they took power. Herr Ronnie is simply following the example of his forebears.
As a general rule, outside of a limited number of intersex conditions, no one is doing genital surgery on anyone below the adult age of consent. All those trans kids you hear about in primary school are pre-op. Hormone therapy is not done either, it’s hormone blockers in kids to prevent puberty until they’re old enough to make adult decisions.
As you note, not every trans person wants to rush into surgery, or even feels a need for it, or may choose to forego it for very good and solid reasons. It very much does need to be an individual decision.
^ And this is a thing. Not just hormone therapy, but hormone blocking. Basically, anything that isn’t brainwashing kids to conform to old stereotypes.
Doctors are allowed to perform genital surgery on minors to correct a functional defect, that’s an extremely limited number of cases that are largely due to intersex conditions or unfortunate accidents. Anything else is considered unethical and doing unethical things, even if not strictly against the law, could get a doctor’s medical license suspended, get him fired from where he works, deprive them of hospital privileges (sort of necessary if you want to do major surgery), and basically stop them from practicing medicine.
Breast reduction in teens is actually quite controversial. Again, there are a very limited number of cases involving teens suffering from functional problems (breast so large they’re causing back problems, cancer at a very young age which is rare but has happened, and so on). There are doctors who will do breast surgery (reduction or augmentation) on older teens but it’s controversial. In the vast majority of cases it will be delayed until the child is legally an adult. And if a trans gender child is allowed to take puberty blockers the issue may never arise at all, as the breast tissue would not get the hormonal signal to start growing/developing, avoiding that surgery altogether.
Holy crap - will you STOP saying breast reduction is no big deal. WTF? It’s major surgery.
Oh, then we should compromise when a child abuser wants full custody of a child during a divorce, right? Or we should compromise on YOUR rights, maybe?
I, for one, do not think we should be compromising on the well-being of people.
Along the same lines, I wonder how many of the people freaking out about alleged genital surgery on teenagers are totally unconcerned about the shockingly high prevalence of teenagers getting nose jobs and other elective surgeries for purely cosmetic reasons.
Rhinoplasty is major surgery (and very often highly unsatisfactory to the recipient, with a revision rate of over 10 percent). But it’s totally legal for teens with parental consent. Where’s the conservative outrage?
(Answer: Elective cosmetic surgery on teenagers is generally done to reinforce gendered stereotypes about appearance, so it’s fine with conservatives. You can have your natural healthy nose and chin chopped to look more “feminine” if you’re a girl, for example, and it doesn’t trigger conservative aversion to “unnatural interference” with the body you were born with.)
I would consider hormone blockers to be a type of hormone therapy. But hormone replacement isn’t done until much later.
I don’t mean to pick nits, but when the whole point of the right’s attack on trans rights is to conflate one thing with another, it’s good to be as correct in medical terminology as possible.
And that’s one of the reasons to keep politicians out of it. We don’t need politicians and lawyers sticking their heads into the doctor’s office when such a surgery is medically advisable on a minor.
Parent of a 17 year old trans son chiming in here. A lot of ignorance on this thread.
Gender reassignment therapy is actually insurance approved before the age of 18. Read it here from [Cigna], and if paid for by major insurance companies, then by definition it is widely accepted medical practice. Cite to prove otherwise. (Gender Affirming Surgery - Medical Clinical Policy Bulletins | Aetna):
Requirements for Breast Removal
Single letter of referral from a qualified mental health professional (see Appendix); and
Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria (see Appendix); and
Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment; and
For members less than 18 years of age, completion of one year of testosterone treatment; and
If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled.
Hysterectomies wait until after 18
Trans youth suicide risk is sky high. 40% is a decent ballpark. It’s bad. My own personal experience was getting notified as by law from the school district at least monthly before my son started testosterone therapy. Then the school notifications and suicidial ideation I noticed went to zero.
Does anyone seriously believe that Michael Jordan or someone else would go thru hormone therapy and/or gender reassignment to become a champion of the other sex. The big bugaboo here is male to female. No one cares about female to male yet there are public athletes that started on the womens team and then switched to the mens team. . Yet to see a documented case of a M2F transwomen setting world records and winning the olympics. Maybe a M2F can be a lead in high school or college level, but haven’t seen this at a true world record level. So, let’s put the canard to rest that “some” people out there are trans because they will become champion women competitors
I personally understand it can be a little difficult to understand “born in the wrong body”.
some cases seem to be pretty obvious starting at a young age. I don’t have this experience.
some cases kicked off with puberty. Again, to be personal, my son had complete gender dysphoria when he started to grow breasts.
Thank god and all the heathen pantheon as well that I live in a sane state and my son can get gender affirming care under the age of 18 and with insurance coverage. The rest of y’all can go fuck yourselves.
You have now piqued my curiosity. Exactly what compromise do you think is acceptable to reach with someone whose position is that you should not even exist in the first place?
Your cite specifically says that Gonadectomy and Genital Reconstructive Surgery is not approved prior to age 18.
“Top surgery” while still a surgery for sure with associated risks and issues, is much less invasive and permanent than “bottom surgery”. Also, if hormone treatment is effective, it may not be necessary.