Where do you think the rest of us learned about whether they perform genital surgeries on trans children? They are saying it. It’s just that “normal” people don’t listen to trans voices. They listen to those who are against trans people. They believe whatever horror story people make up about them, because they want a reason to justify how they feel about trans people.
It’s the same as the people who would say all this horrible stuff about Black Lives Matters. They would rather listen to what their opponents said about them than actually listen to actual black people.
Hell, it’s not even like genital surgery is the norm for trans adults. Trans men don’t have a choice in that matter. And the surgery in question for trans women has risks of not going right, and often isn’t worth it. It’s so uncommon that even the transphobes assume that a trans woman likely has a penis–it features in their stereotypes and hateful talking points. How would seeing a trans woman’s vulva scandalize children, for instance?
I guess it is “normal” to fall for “think of the children” scams, especially when they play to your own biases. But that’s not an issue with trans people not saying the opposite. It’s an issue of who people choose to listen to.
What kind of cite do you have with this assertion? Yes, there may be a percentage of transgender folk that feel hormone therapy meets their needs. Many more need surgery as well for the gender dysphoria and their mental health.
@k9bfriender With all due respect, hormone therapy or cutting your boobs off is not part of gender reassignment? For F2M, the process is typically hormone therapy >> top surgery >> bottom surgery >> possibly creation of a penis.
Not just my cite, but my post also highlights that hysterectomies are not performed until 18. So, no gotcha ya’s there.
Puberty blockers seem like a good, prudent path. The challenge is a high percentage of trans kids don’t figure it out until puberty comes roaring down the track. IIRC, puberty blockers work best before puberty (which is coming at years younger ages than even 50 years ago), and not prescribed 2 years after the onset of puberty. Puberty blockers simply kick the can down the road, which can give parents and the kids in question time to understand it is not a phase (or the converse).
Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but Florida and other homophobic State governments are even against puberty blockers, no?
The trans community and its allies have been trying to get this message out not just for years but for decades. But trans people are a very small minority and the trans phobes greatly outnumber them, as well as having more access to communication outlets, money, and power.
“I am bigoted. It is the responsibility of the victims of my bigotry to teach me why my bigotry is wrong. If they don’t, then it’s their fault I remain a bigot.”
Well… actually they do but the results are less than perfect. The New York Times recently ran an article about phalloplasty for trans men. It’s a long, difficult, multi-step series of surgeries with a price tag in the six digits and some significant risks.
I find that both the uninformed and the trans phobes tend to focus a lot on genitals when it comes to trans people. The actual trans people I know focus a lot more on being socially accepted and/or being able to pass in clothing (which is not to say physical revisions aren’t important, they’re just not the top priority).
A combination of puberty blockers that prevent the development of traits like boobs or a low voice or a beard can make some types of surgery unnecessary later. If a trans man never develops female-type breasts then top surgery won’t be necessary. If a trans woman never starts male-pattern hair growth then electrolysis for permanent removal isn’t necessary. Low voice? You know, we don’t have an answer for that, other than vocal training but if a person goes through male puberty and develops a voice in the tuba range they’re stuck. And a trans woman started on HRT early can grow her own breasts instead of needing surgery for that, too.
But that requires that the person in question is identified as trans pre-puberty, receives appropriate counseling and medication to block puberty, then is given HRT rather than letting “nature take its course”. With HRT their own body will be nudged in the desired direction and grow secondary sexual traits instead of being subjected to plastic surgery which is invasive, extensive, painful, expensive, and can take years to finish.
I believe so, and some of the bans I’ve heard proposed would also ban them for cis kids with precocious puberty which is a different medical condition which can result in stunted height and a five year old giving birth which is not a record I ever want to see broken. Especially since a lot of those same states are trying to completely ban abortion as well.
I mean, in the next sentence, you agree with what I said. What are you arguing about? I didn’t say that top surgery is never needed, I said that, if hormone treatment is effective, it may not be necessary.
But here’s an independant cite, anyway:
And before you think there’s some gotcha here in the next paragraph
Nothing that I have said contradicts that. I said that in some cases, with proper hormone therapy, it is not necessary.
I see nothing upon which we disagree here, other than your need to be disagreeable for some reason.
Where did I say it wasn’t?
More my position is: I have no idea what it is that you think you are arguing about.
@filmore was claiming that bottom surgery was performed on minors. That was certainly ignorance on their part. I pointed out that bottom surgery is not performed on minors. After some complaints that he was not contacted about this personally by skywriting, he seems to have withdrawn from the thread for now.
Then you come in, claiming that we are all ignorant, and that gender reassignment is a widely accepted practice. No one in this thread has said otherwise, just that bottom surgery is not.
I point out that the topic that we were talking about, gonadectomy and genital reconstructive surgery, are specifically excluded by your cite, and you again argue against me by implying that I said that hormone therapy or top surgery are not part of gender reassignment, which I did not.
I don’t know where you came in in this thread, but you are fighting against the wrong people here. Hopefully this brief summary helps.
That is correct, and have various legislation and/or executive orders impeding their use. This is why I think it is important to define what we are talking about. The transphobes use the overall concept of gender reassignment to claim that people are chopping of the penises of 5 year olds. It is specifically to fight ignorance that it is important to point out the different forms of gender reassignment, and when they are available and used.
If you ask your average Florida voter if an 8 year old transgendered individual should receive gender reassignment treatment, and they automatically think that means genital reconstructive surgery, they are going to say no and vote accordingly. If you ask them if they should receive hormone blockers, they may be more amenable to that.
By insisting on lumping them all together, you are making your own fight that much harder. @filmore was wrong about nearly everything they said in this thread, the only thing they weren’t wrong about is that there is a lot of ignorance out there about transgender therapies, much of which is being fed by the transphobes out there, and so it’s better to be specific in what we are talking about.
If you read your cite, you would see that the technology is still developing, and has a long way to go. Yes, the surgery can be done, but what you are left with is not the same as a natural penis, and there are a number of complications that are not uncommon.
The point that was being made that you seem to be disputing, is that bottom surgery is not necessary to be considered transitioned, and shouldn’t be. If the individual wants to undergo it, I am supportive of that, but it shouldn’t be necessary to be considered one’s preferred gender. Was that really what you intended to dispute here?
@China_Guy said "gender reassignment therapy, not surgery. “Therapy” can cover a wide variety of things, including surgery, but also including hormone blockers/replacers, and things like a psychiatrist telling the kid “You’re OK”.
@filmore, the problem is that the trans community has already made reasonable compromises, and the right refuses to go along. It’s Zeno’s Compromise: The left meets the right halfway, but the right stays put. Then the right insists the left meet them halfway from where they are now, and so on, until the right gets all their own way in everything with no compromise at all.
Sorry about the delay. Sometimes life interferes. Then there’s more and more posts and a reply would take more and more time that I didn’t have.
Somehow my words got turned around to say that I’m against all trans rights. I’m not. I was just talking about genital reassignment surgery in kids. But replies like “doctor’s don’t do that” and “it’s not approved by the AMA” doesn’t convey how trans supporters feel about genital reassignment surgery in kids. If at the next meeting of the AMA they did away with the age limit on the surgery and doctors started doing it, how would trans supporters feel about the procedure? It’s these wishy-washy vague answers that play right into the right’s narrative. Tucker Carlson can say something like “Trans activists are creating TikToks to get kids to get gender surgery” and the right spreads that message over social media. Then the trans supporters say something vague like “medical decisions are between a patient and doctor”, which the right picks up as “shop for the doctor who will do the procedure”.
The bolded part in the quote is what trans activists need to be saying. Say something definitive like “Gender reassignment surgery is not a suitable treatment for minors, but other less invasive treatments like hormone therapy can greatly help children and need to remain viable options.”
Then by all means, as an expert on how trans supporters feel about genital reassignment surgery, tell us what they “feel”, enthrall us with your acumen!
I’m saying I’m not an expert since trans supporters don’t seem to be very forthcoming on their stance. For example, just last night on “NBC Nightly News”, they had a segment on the Florida situation. The guest they had said something like “Kids aren’t getting surgeries. This is about hormone access.” However, she didn’t say why they aren’t getting surgeries. Is it because no kids want them? Because doctors won’t do them? Because the AMA doesn’t allow them? Because they are prohibited by law? This was a wasted opportunity to inform millions about this issue.
I get that, but I was trying to clear up confusion, as @China_Guy was implying that what @Broomstick and I were talking about was incorrect, when the only thing that we had said was that bottom surgery was not something that would be accessible to minors.
I think we are on the same side of things here, but he may have missed some context of the comments that were made.
Unfortunately, you are pretty much verbatim repeating directly from the transphobe talking points, so it’s understandable why your talking points would come across as transphobic.
Right, and now you know that that’s not a thing, right?
And how do trans supporters feel about genital reassignment surgery in kids? You seem to have declared yourself an expert, enlighten us.
If at the next meeting of the AMA, they did away with the prohibition on decapitating a patient as treatment for a hangnail, and doctors started doing that, how would paronychiacs feel about that?
No, it’s ignorance like you have expressed that is part of the right’s entire strategy.
Yes, he lies about a number of things, and people believe those lies, and people like you spread those lies.
What has been vague? It has been specifically told to you that bottom surgery is not done on minors. This information is freely available, and is talked about to anyone who isn’t doing their damndest to ignore it. Anyone interesting in the subject can very easily educate themselves. There’s even a video and article about it on the front page of the AMA’s website.
You can make all the assumptions you want out of ignorance, but the fault is your ignorance, not that people are not more than willing to provide the information that you lack.
Seriously, do you need a skywriting plane to spell it out for you personally?
When Tucker Carlson comes on and lies and says that @filmore is a sexual predator, is it your fault that you haven’t gone door to door in your neighborhood to assure them that you are not?
I mean, this is something that you yourself claimed to be in support of earlier in the thread, gender reassignment surgery includes breast reduction/ augmentation.
A more proper statement would be “Genital reconstructive surgery is not a suitable treatment for minors”, and that is exactly what is said for anyone who is not actively protecting their ignorance.
They do, and the people who don’t think that medical decisions should be between a patient, their guardians, and their doctor want to stop those as being legal options.
The AMA is where the experts are, the ones who have medical knowledge and through research, testing, and many years of experience have built a science around knowing how to save lives and improve the quality of life for people.
Congress is full of many people who know fuck-all about medicine because they don’t have to. They have their position of power because they got enough people to vote for them, sometimes it’s simply because they found a lot of people that share their ignorance and hatred.
You think that Congress should proactively dictate exactly what the AMA should and shouldn’t do? Just in case they might decide to allow a medical practice you might dislike?
Let the fucking experts do their jobs. Congress is the reason homeopathic scams are still legal. Your worries about the AMA going rogue are ignorant bullshit paranoia.
How about a link to it, rather than “said something like” and then complaining about what words you thought you may have heard and not heard?
It’s a news segment, it’s not a lecture on gender dysphoria and treatment thereof. They told you exactly what you say you don’t know, it’s about access to hormone treatment.
Ultimately, because there is no doctor in the US that would do it. I’m sure there are some kids that would want it, and maybe even some guardians that would allow it, but no matter how much “shopping” they do, they won’t find a doctor to do it, much less a hospital that will allow the surgery to be performed there, at least in the United States. No laws will change any of that. I’m sure there are countries where someone desperate enough could find one, or there may be some extremely unethical and probably unlicensed doctor that is willing to do it in their garage, but laws won’t change that either.
Now, what laws will do is to stick an uninformed politician’s policy in between the care that is best for the patient, which is exactly what the transphobes want. That’s going to interfere with the sort of therapy you claimed you were for, hormone blockers, hormone treatments, and possible breast reduction/augmentation. It will also interfere with medically necessitated genital reconstruction due to deformities or damage from birth, illness, or accident.
Now, you say you aren’t a transphobe, and I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to not be mistaken for one, then you should stop regurgitating their talking points.
Your ignorance has been cured, you should go out and spread your knowledge, rather than complaining that no one came and individually spoon fed it to you.
And it’s really crazy to be complaining that no trans rights advocates ever say these things, in a thread where trans rights advocates are saying these things.
Well, gee, I’m not a trans person. I am an ally and a supporter of trans rights so I guess I can take a stab at answering this question…?
Genital reconfiguration a.k.a. “bottom surgery” is not just a major medical procedure, it can involve a series of major medical procedures and no one of any age should be undergoing them without full disclosure of the risks as well as the benefits, what such procedures will and will not enable them to do, and some time to seriously think about it all. As minors are not able to make adult decisions I would continue to defer such procedures until after the person is legally an adult and able to make adult decisions. As with all gender transition therapy at any age this should also take place in conjunction with counseling and other support services to make sure that this is an appropriate course of treatment for the patient.
So, to sum up: no, I do not think minors should be undergoing bottom surgery as part of gender dysphoria treatment.
My information from trans gender people is all second hand, but my recollection is that everyone of them I’ve heard express a view on the subject it has been similar - no one should be getting bottom surgery until they are able to make adult decisions.
In some jurisdictions that means no one under 18. In some it might be permitted with parental consent and/or ethics review at 16. It sure as hell is not going to be happening before that.
My information (and admittedly, it’s second hand although we have had trans gender Dopers weigh in) is that while trans gender people and allies (a.k.a. “activists”, meaning we want these people treated humanely) are largely pro-puberty blockers no one is eager to do surgery on teens. Least of all those trans people who, as adults and sometimes years after legally and socially transitioning themselves, have not yet gotten bottom surgery for themselves. Because there are significant numbers of trans people who don’t get bottom surgery for some very solid reasons. No one should ever be forced, coerced or pressured to get their crotch reconfigured to conform to anyone else’s expectations.
Yeah, right - there are states right now that are trying to ban ANY form of gender dysphoria therapy, including things like puberty-blockers or even talk therapy. The transphobes have zero desire to compromise. I’m much more interested in the people that can be reached.
Wow. That’s right up there with Christians who are convinced that the only reason anyone behaves themself is because God is looking down and will smite sinners and that’s why we can’t trust atheists, because they don’t fear God and thus have no motivation to behave. Which might explain all those preachers and priests molesting kids when they think no one is looking (though if they actually believe in their God you’d think they’d still worry about God seeing them do the deed. But maybe they turn the lights out because, you know, God can’t see in the dark or something)
In the fine tradition of the SDMB, in a Pit thread about Republican transphobia, has emerged a rathered considered discussion on the nuances of real-life affirming treatment for transgender youth, as a response to a display of misinformed “concern”.
These moments when ignorance helps fight itself are one of the things I love about this place.
Trans activists are very open and forthcoming for anyone who is paying attention or actively asking. But their attempts at promoting their genuine objective expert information have encountered difficulty breaking through in a prejudiced and sensationalist media environment, for reasons I desperately hope you will find obvious and non-controversial. As a consequence, if one is a passive consumer of news and information, one’s viewpoint will be ignorant and ill considered as a result of not having done one’s own fucking homework.