I’m a Pagan who used to attend a UU service in a coffee shop every week. Very informal affair. UU’s can be everything from Jesus-believing Christians to Atheists to Pagan to Confused. Congregations will vary, but in general they’re highly tolerant. They tend to learn about other religions and their practices without feeling a need to believe in those religions. Very tolerant group overall, and if you decide to leave they won’t hold it against you or try to chase you.
Some people are moral because they fear the punishment of an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-pissed-off diety.
Some people are moral because it’s the right thing to do.
The first group can’t understand that the second group can exist without Big Brother in the Sky. The second understands that one can be moral without requiring a religious crutch.
I don’t view you as “apostate” because I was never a member of the group you just left. Ex-Mormon, yes, but “apostate”? Doesn’t enter into my vocabulary. Then again, the concept of “apostasy” just does not exist in my religion.
We use the word “apostate” very deliberately to distinguish us from inactive Mormons. Ex-Mormon and post-Mormon are good words too. There are millions of inactive Mormons who would believe and practice if only they could resolve some petty feud with their neighbors, or give up coffee, or whatever. “Apostate” has a certain shock value that matches our situation. I have never met someone (in person, anyway) who self-identifies as an “apostate” from Mormonism.
I was raised by a Mormon man who faithfully attended church each week, did all the callings, went to the temple, etc., etc., and molested his daughters and physically, mentally and emotionally abused his wife and children to a sever degree. You’re call if attending a church is a requirement for a happy household.
Noted. But he’s not defending this, so it doesn’t count.
Internet tough guy talking. I was really pissed when I wrote that, though. When I was leaving the church, I put up with too much shit.
They no longer have any spiritual stewardship over him anymore, though, but they don’t realize it.
If you wish to resign your membership from a social club, you can do so at will. It shouldn’t take jumping through any hoops.
I like it, though. I tend to use “ex-Mormon” myself, but “apostate” has a nice ring to it.
I was born and raised as a member of the LDS church and remained active until my mid 20s. Although I am technically still a member (i.e. I haven’t gone through the formal procedure of removing myself from the church records yet) I’m an atheist and don’t consider myself mormon any longer. I’ve lived in Utah for the last 19 years and thought I’d supply a data point about living in this state as a self described non mormon. I’m probably an exception but when I stopped attending church, paying tithing, etc. I honestly don’t recall being shunned or outcast by other members of the ward. This is probably due to the make up of my character though. I’ve never needed more companionship than that provided by a small group of family and friends. So, to an extent, I had never really established deep friendships with people in any of the social circles I frequented (including church). The personal pain I felt on losing my faith (I’ve now made a full recovery, thanks!) dwarfed what little discomfort I may have experienced by the loss of social support.
Congrats on being able to slip under the radar without making a big fuss of it. No feelings get hurt the way you did it. Each situation is unique. I had imagined my family could just quietly stop attending, but our home teachers, bishopric, missionaries, and other ward and stake leaders were too diligent to let us sneak out the back door unnoticed. I wonder if things would have been different if we had apostasized in Utah. We didn’t really connect much with our last Utah ward.
When we moved to Texas, we didn’t know anyone here. We called the LDS for help unloading the truck and watching the kids while rocknrhodes interviewed for jobs. We worked with the LDS to clear hurricane debris from our house and from other ward members’. Their teenagers were the only source we knew for babysitters. The LDS took good care of us, and are our only friends except rockn’s new heathen coworker. There really was no way to quietly stop believing and participating. And we would never have been free to de-program our own kids without making a stand against our well-intentioned but deluded friends.
I just wrote a huge post on Postmormon debunking that entire speech by Cook.
First and foremost, think about it… since when would Mick Jagger fly commercial and sit in coach? :dubious:
I really enjoy doing the research and then tearing mormon urban legends (faith-promoting rumors) to shreds. That one was like shooting fish in a barrel.
That letter you got back is standard operating procedure. Remember this one very important fact: The minute your letter was received in Greg Dodge’s office in SLC, you were out. You are in no way obligated at all to respond, or meet with a stake president or anything. He will try to meet with you or will try to get your bishop to contact you, for the express purpose of giving you that “Are you ssuuuuuuure?” talk. You don’t have to bother. At Postmormon, we generally advise people to just put it out of their minds. When and if they are contacted, tell the SP: “I don’t have any reason to discuss this. Please process my resignation immediately. If I change my mind, I know how to find you. Thanks.”
And then sit back and wait for the confirmation letter. (Mine is framed. ;)) Eventually, you will get one, but they will try this run-around nonsense. Just ignore it. You’re already out.
I do. I once declared, in a bar while completely shitfaced, that I am a condemned apostate bound for Outer Darkness. The guy I was interested in at the time said to me, “Ooo, that’s hot.”
Aw yeah.
Mainly I do it to send up a flag. Most good True Believing Mormons will not associate with a known apostate – in fact you are well aware the temple recommend interview probes for that. So I make it known up front so that any TBMs in my vicinity will pound sand. This is my “live and let live” mentality. I will let you know what you are dealing with right away so you will not mess with me and therefore, I will leave you alone too.
Maybe this would be better discussed in IMHO, but I have a question for ex-Mormons.
Should I start drinking? It seems rocknrhodes and I are the only ex-Mormons who don’t drink.
For context, we are in our early 30s with 3 small kids. We have no experience with alcohol except NyQuil and occasionally some sherry in a recipe. I might have bad genes, too - all the men on my mother’s side are alcoholics, and I knock back a 12-pack of Diet Pepsi every day. I’d hate to replace that with a beer obsession.
Do the benefits outweigh the costs? Do my coworkers think I’m holier-than-thou when I decline to go out for margueritas to celebrate reaching a milestone? Do I spoil the fun when I’m drinking Diet Pepsi at barbeques and Christmas parties? Is it rude to not have a shot or a cold beer to offer a neighbor when we’re chatting? Am I missing out on all the fun? Are rock concerts more exciting with a buzz? Will my LDS friends and family assume that’s the real reason I left the church?
For now, I just explain to people that I don’t drink, never have, but that I am not religious. Everyone thinks that’s pretty weird.
Rhodes, that’s a discussion for postmormon.org. Although I’m sure Dopers will give you excellent advice, wouldn’t you also like to have the perspective from 3,000 other people who have been down the exact same road you are on right now? If you do decide to explore alcohol, there are a ton of threads (usually at least one or two weekly) recommending advice on both Postmormon.org and Exmormon.com. Those forums will work you through the pros and cons and will also guide you through the first steps (learning the lingo, acquiring the tastes, learning to know what your limits are, how to figure out what you like or don’t like).
To answer your question, you should start drinking if you *want *to drink. Do the benefits outweigh the costs? Depends on what you’re drinking, how much, how often, and how you define “benefits” and “costs.” Do you spoil the fun being a teetotaler? Doubtful. Is it rude not to have booze to offer guests? Not really. Are you missing out on all the fun? Maybe. You might be missing out on some fun.
But yes. Your LDS friends and family will assume that you are either: lazy and couldn’t live the standards, wanted to sin (drink, smoke, extramarital sex, etc.), or were offended by some personal slight on the part of some other member. It’s never assumed that you left because you thought the doctrine was crap or because you thought the church doesn’t deliver on its promises, or because you studied the history and realized you’d been fed a pack of lies your whole life. Oh no. Never let the facts get in the way of some good juicy mormon gossip.
The important thing to focus on is that you are now in control of your own choices. For the first time in your life, you get to choose if you would like to drink (for whatever reasons) or not. And you get to make that choice based on whatever facts and data you gather, instead of obeying some rule just because some book told you to.
And btw, beer and homemade wine are allowed by the Word of Wisdom. You were always allowed to drink beer. Most people never actually read D&C 89, but it’s in there.
What I’d say to them is, if you’re gonna trust God, then trust God. If you believe what you believe, then you believe God’s the one in charge of ‘eternal consequences,’ and not you and your rules. You and your rules can’t tie God’s hands; if you or your rules don’t think someone belongs in heaven, or will only get into the steerage of heaven where they don’t get their own planet (shmanet, Janet), God will take it under advisement, look into the heart of the person concerned, and make His own call. He’s God, after all. If He’s anything like that Jesus fellow, He’s not gonna care too much whether someone joined one God club or quit another one; He’s gonna be more interested in why.
I’m with Dogzilla: try drinking if you want to, don’t if you don’t. Be who you are. Though if, as you say, alcoholism runs in your family, you might consider trying booze a bit more of a gamble than those of us who don’t have that problem would, and it’s perfectly sensible to not want to roll that particular set of dice.
Good grief, no! It’s just as rude to pressure others to imbibe as it is to insist that they not imbibe. Most people don’t really give a flying flip whether you drink alcoholic beverages or not, so long as you don’t look down on them if they do (or don’t). And if it IS important to them that you drink at their parties, then maybe you don’t really want to hang with them.
Of course not. You are a good neighbor if you offer him or her some of whatever you’ve got.
You get to decide for yourself what’s fun for you. Everybody’s different.
True. I finally signed up about an hour ago. I oughtta start reading tonight. I can’t find your Jagger discussion, btw.
Ironically, I think most Mormons have read the Word of Wisdom repeatedly, but somehow don’t see (or don’t care) what the words are saying. Like meat only in a famine in winter, which is interpreted to mean not too much meat, which is interpreted to mean not more than a 32 oz steak at one sitting. And just what is a mild drink made from barley if not beer? And why is iced tea a taboo “hot drink” when hot cocoa is served at church gatherings? But my favorite part is the first verse, where it is a “Word of Wisdom, not by way of commandment.” I have always obeyed the modern interpretation (with a liberal view of caffeinated soda) while being aware of God’s actual words to Joseph Smith.
But if the Mormons learn that I have started drinking socially, they won’t care that it’s endorsed by the same scripture that is supposed to condemn it. They’ll just see a beer or a glass of wine and say “Aha! You didn’t leave because the church is false! You left because you craved the Babylonian lifestyle!”
I’ll PM you the link to the Jagger thread. It was fun.
And you’re right. The minute you stop avoiding the appearance of evil, you might as well walk around smooshing in the soft spots on little babies’ heads because in the minds of many TBMs, it’s the same thing.
Just remember you don’t have to drink. Plenty of people who were never Mormons don’t drink. Plenty of non-religious people a.k.a. atheists don’t drink simply because they don’t like the taste or don’t like the way it makes them feel.
So… if you want to try it fine, just don’t feel obligated in any way. Plenty of people would be happy to have a designated driver around who doesn’t drink. And if you try it and enjoy it - remember, moderation is a very good thing.
I am not an ex-Mormon, but all I can say is this. Everywhere in America there are countless commercials, TV shows, movies, posters, jokes, and so forth telling you how great beer is. If you ever do taste a beer, you’re just going to go: “Hey’ what’s all the fuss about?” Beer is, in all honesty, not that great, and highly overrated. I think the fact that it’s illegal for those under 21 creates a ‘forbidden fruit’ aura.
At age 48, I am really starting to appreciate beer so I would differ. However, I will say to Rhodes to not feel any pressure at all. Instead, coffee will do to cement your apostasy.
The guy I was interested in at the time said to me, “Ooo, that’s hot.”