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It was a tangent on a complaint about men approaching women which had moved on from a discussion of women in danger.
I did not rant or complain but will not comment further on the topic here.
Bolding mine.
This meme is probably one of the most toxic thing I’ve seen online, which is saying something.
If anything, the only thing it has achieved is increasing the divide between men and women. As always, both sides couldn’t help interpreting the other side’s reactions with results that are at best superficial, at worst offensively off-the-mark.
I cannot and will not comment about women’s feelings and decisions because, not being one, I cannot understand what they go through.
I can, but only partially, understand other men’s reactions. And what I see isn’t good.
The assholes who don’t give a **** about women’s opinions and safety don’t give a **** about this meme. If anything, it gives them a perverse sense of power, and they will continue to harass, oppress and, if the opportunity arises, rape women.
Those who care and have tried to listen and better themselves all their lives are starting to consider that the topic of relationships is utterly poisoned, and that the only smart thing to do is disengage totally from any emotional involvement.
The cynic in me is starting to wonder whether it wasn’t the plan all along.
@Jay_Z
Moderating
No, and please do not post to this thread again.
To others…
Please, a flag would be better than a reply.
Yes! That’s what makes it interesting, important…and sad.
Honestly, there’s a lot in what you said that I disagree with–starting with the idea that it’s the meme itself that’s toxic. The meme itself is illuminating. It’s the discourse surrounding it, IMO, where the toxicity is really thriving.
And of course men can comment on women’s feelings and decisions, just like women can comment on men’s feelings and decisions. The caveat is twofold:
- Don’t assume that all women or men feel and decide things the same way. Comment on individuals, or even notice trends, but don’t overgeneralize.
- The comments on feelings really really shouldn’t dismiss or delegitimize those feelings. (This, too, goes both ways–there’s just as much commentary from women delegitimizing the dismay of some men as there is from men delegitimizing the worries of some women).
But the biggest disagreement I have is with that final paragraph that I quoted. Who are these guys who are deciding that disengaging totally from emotional involvement is the only smart thing to do? I don’t want to be insulting*, but that comes across as a profoundly cowardly reaction that misses the point entirely. The courageous, honest, and compassionate thing to do is to pay attention to what people are saying, to not be over-defensive, and to think about what real concerns there are and how one can be part of addressing those concerns.
*to be clear, you use third-person pronouns in that paragraph, which makes me think you’re not talking about yourself there. I’m not saying you’re cowardly.
I’m seeing a good deal of that defensive reaction. And I think Moonrise’s post just quoted provides an example of that.
Note that nearly every woman who’s posted in this thread has said that we know men who we love, respect, and trust. Nothing about that is going to change our recognition that there are men who are dangerous to us. And nothing about our recognition that there are men who are dangerous to us – except in extreme cases of trauma, and sometimes not then – is going to change our recognition that there are men who we love, respect, and trust.
But a really bad way to try to present oneself as a man who belongs in the latter category is to react to somebody pointing out the dangers with ‘well I just won’t have anything at all to do with women then, all the women are poisonous to men!’
Who are these men who are shocked that women are choosing the bear? The whole point of the meme is to highlight the fact that women don’t feel safe alone with strange men, and have never felt safe alone with strange men.
Men, you’re not supposed to be arguing that the women are wrong, you’re supposed to be learning.
My gf had never heard the man/bear thing, so I asked her what she’d choose. She gave the same answer as I did, and for the same exact reasons. We both would choose bear without a second thought. We’ve each encountered black bears in the wild and would be thrilled to see another. As for a strange man, he’d be trespassing and there would be the awkward situation of calling the police, etc.
Once I explained the meme, she understood better. She then asked which I’d rather encounter in the woods, a black bear or a twenty dollar bill. We both still pick the bear.
But, at least the way the meme or question is often presented, it’s not obvious whether it’s about which feels more dangerous or about which objectively is more dangerous. And it bears (no pun intended) a resemblance to other internet memes that get passed around specifically because they’re Fun Things To Argue About, like (as @Jophiel said in the earlier thread) “asking if you’d rather fight a horse-sized duck or fifty duck-sized horses.”
I didn’t even get where that’s coming from. Women are afraid of unknown men. And some specific known men. But pretty much every woman is close to and trusts some men, too. Women have fathers, brothers, husbands, sons, friends, and co-workers whom they trust. Emotional involvement decreases the odds of being distrusted by a specific woman.
Is it harder to achieve emotional involvement because women are wary of men? Sure. But that’s nothing new. This meme didn’t tell you anything that decreases your odds, it explains the difficulties you might already be having. It even provides hints towards getting along better with women. Avoid being threatening.
When my wife asked me the question and then gave her answer I… I dunno, sort of just mentally shrugged? I already knew that women often felt unsafe around strange men and, so far as this meme was an illustration of that and not a chance to debate how many foot-pounds of pressure a bear claw exerts, I didn’t really know what to do with it. It’s not that I don’t care if women feel unsafe, it’s just that being asked some question off TikTok didn’t bring anything new to my table.
But I wasn’t offended by the question or felt the need to scientifically debate bears or think my relationship with my spouse (or any other woman) was poisoned by it. I actually sort of wonder who the meme is intended for and best guess it’s more of a solidarity between women thing than a “teach men” thing but maybe I’m wrong. But it feels like the only men who are going to be receptive to it are the ones who didn’t need to hear it. The percentage of men who are going to say “Well, the bear obviou— what? Oh my, I had no idea…” has got to be pretty small.
SyncoSmalls is correct, it was started by a man. And he has said that he hadn’t intended for it to be a question that people would actually answer, because the answer (bear) was so obvious. The intent was to get people to realize “oh geez, most women would say bear. That’s terrible. Why is that, and what can I do about it?” Even for those who answer “man”, it’s an opportunity to realize this is even a question in the first place.
Getting into debates about statistics or trying to better define the scenario is counterproductive, and as I said above, I think the people who do this are trying to avoid the more uncomfortable conversation. I’ll be charitable and guess that many people are doing this unconsciously – we all like to avoid uncomfortable situations if we can – but for a lot of people, it is very intentional.
Bear Awareness Week is a just another made-up corporate event!
Do you think that “which objectively is more dangerous” is a clearly settled question?
Most bears have no intention of attacking humans, unless they feel threatened by the human(s). Most men have no intention of attacking other humans, unles they feel threatened by the human(s). Neither of them is automatically going to feel threatened just by seeing a human on the trail. If the bear does feel threatened, it’s likely to run away. If the human feels threatened, they may do all sorts of things. Anyway, I think that part of it is a wash; not something with a clear and obvious answer one way or the other.
If the question is whether it’s more dangerous to be attacked by a bear or by a malicious human, the answer is almost certainly the human. The bear’s physically stronger and has claws and larger teeth, yes. But a malicious human is probably armed. (A non-malicious human may also be armed; but a malicious one very likely is – especially one who’s actively hunting.) And a human may dissemble, and act friendly to put the victim off their guard. A bear’s not going to do that. Plus which, as has been pointed out before in the thread, while either can maim or kill you only a human can imprison you and torture you for an extended period before killing you.
So I think a fair claim can be made that the objective answer is that you’re better off meeting the bear; or at least that it’s a wash. I think that the claim that the bear is obviously more dangerous assumes that a random bear is quite likely to attack a human; and I don’t think that’s true. The answer might be different in polar bear territory; but I think most people are thinking black bear or at worst grizzly.
I agree that it’s an obvious answer, but not necessarily for the reason intended.
Lots of people–my wife and daughters and myself included–are neutral about seeing a guy in the woods (guys–yawn) but actively thrilled to see a bear. This morning there was a bear wandering around the playground at the school I teach at, and we didn’t even pause student dropoff; instead, staff who got to see the bear were excitedly telling their story to the rest of us who were jealous. There was also a guy on campus this morning–several of us, actually–but nobody told stories about seeing us.
Plenty of other animals might lead to a more difficult question that might get to the issue of danger or annoyance. Which would you rather see if you’re alone in the woods, a man or
- a tiger?
- a mountain lion?
- a hornet?
- a nest of hornets?
- a mosquito?
- a tick?
I don’t know how the answers would go, but “a bear” is, for a lot of folks, a delightful sighting, and makes it really easy to miss the underlying point.
That’s what I keep trying to say. Men durping into this thread and the other one with “black bear or grizzly” or “is it on a trail” or whatever are either being assholes or are too dense to understand the point. (Not including people’s cool real life bear anecdotes in this group). Replace bear with a potentially dangerous animal of your choice.
This is probably true for people who have bear experience, especially black bears. I would guess most people just, for question purposes, assume “worst case bear scenario” versus “happy mostly harmless black bear”. Even knowing the reputation of black bears, when I was asked the question I assumed I was supposed to be imagining a giant-ass Kodiak in my face as I turned the corner.
“Would you rather face a smallish bear that scampers away when it sees you?” isn’t much of a question.
It’s not about bears. It’s about women’s fear of being alone with a strange man. Any sensible woman should be. All sorts of tangential questions can be raised, but not from the basis that women should have no fear of strange men, or based on anything about bears.
If women want men to learn from…whatever this is, they should make their point in a way which doesn’t invite correction and ridicule. This whole bear thing is the dumbest thing I’ve seen online in years.
You’re simply not teachable. It’s been explained to the point of exhaustion.