I feel sorry for people who regard fantasy and make-believe as ‘deceit’. It speaks to me of a very barren and hard-edged life.
In my estimation, we beat imagination out of people far too soon. Then, when they’re grown, they have to attend work-sponsored courses on ‘thinking outside the box’. That’s because people stuffed them into the box and slammed down the lid before they ever got a chance to learn to fly.
It’s very sad.
This is unduly condemning, and bases its condemnation on a false premise, and a premise easily seen to be false at that.
I play with my kid, I say “Better run, I’m gonna eat ya!” and he runs away squealing. We’re pretending I’m a monster. He’s pretending he’s a victim. We’re using our imaginations. We’re playing.
Later on, (he’s only two right now,) we’ll read books and tell each other stories. We’ll play games where he must solve problems. We’ll be using our imaginations. It will be fun.
That’s play. That’s imagination. That’s fantasy.
And it’s not necessarily the same thing as this:
The former constitutes the playful engagement of imagination, without deception. The latter, arguably, in many contexts, constitutes deception, and arguably does not constitute engagement of the imagination.
Santa play can be a playful engagement of imagiation. But for you to suggest that anyone who thinks the Santa game can go to far therefore does not advocate play and fantasy for children, is for you to make an inappropriately insulting judgment against others.
Did you read this post? Having read it, would you still maintain that not wanting to put a kid through that kind of experience is the same thing as not thinking kids ought to engage in imaginative fantasy with their mentors?
-FrL-
Kids needs something to believe in. What that is may change over time, and depends partly upon their family belief system. They may believe in imaginary friends, video game monsters, angels, Harry Potter, Jesus, or that the guy down the block lives in a haunted house. They also are influenced by their friends, and kids in school. Their beliefs do change over time, and I believe that’s a natural part of maturing and emotional growth.
My husband and I do Santa & Mrs appearances during the Christmas season. There isn’t enough money in the world for us to do department store shilling, or act as a hammer for parents who want their kids to behave. I’ve come very close to dragging a parent out of sight, and having a word with them.
I sew our outfits, and keep track of when we’re to show up. Some kids also aren’t as panicked by the big guy in the red suit, if there’s a granny sitting beside him. Santa suits up, shows up, and tries to talk to the little kids in a non threatening manner. None of the booming voice, and scary movements. Due to these PC times, he makes sure his hands are in sight, and is careful of his words. The other ‘kids’ are all ages, including teens and oldsters.
We pose for pictures. Oh yes, do we ever pose for pictures.
We’ve ridden on sleighs, firetrucks, trailers, wagons, in regular vehicles, and our favorite, on his chopper in parades.
We show up at community centers, banks, (for which we do get paid a nominal fee, and donate), at a Children’s Group Home for foster kids, and schools.
As times have changed, so have we. The kids also ask (some) different questions than before. Few want wooden toys built in a workshop by elves.
The little kids believe we are who we seem to be.
Our standard story for the others is that there is and has been only ONE Santa in the world, with many helpers. That it is the spirit of Santa and what he represents that is important. That all the REAL santa helpers have to sign a contract saying they’ll never tell who the real one is.
That Billy Bob Thorton or Tim Allen aren’t really the spirit of the season. Neither is some drunk half dressed guy in a santa suit weaving down the street, nor is a perv at some family party.
Online ordering, subcontracting, and huge department stores have made being Santa much easier. Mom and Dad are always consulted, and usually gifts go through them. No, it isn’t possible to visit EVERY house in the world in one night, and some families don’t do Christmas. We can’t make your Dad come back home, or get him out of jail, but are you okay where you are?
Some people do as much as they can, to help others who can’t.
My husband is a natural santa, big guy with a white beard. He’s been tackled by 3 year olds in WalMart. Everywhere we go, there’s at least one kid who wants to talk to us. We usually carry small picture cards to give them. Since we live in the south, and he wears shorts almost year around, we say we have a home here too, and it’s much too warm to wear heavy outfits full time. The reindeer also can’t live here in the warmer temps.
These kids see us year around. It’s important that we are accessible, and that we behave like humans wherever we go. Parents have told us they wouldn’t have found out what their kids really wanted without eavesdropping.
Win-Win. What’s not to like?
Again. Kids will believe in something, then they’ll move on to something else. If they retain some of the magic, some of the care and doing for others, what’s the harm?
They may actually grow up to do random acts of kindness, be in charge of charities, or put forth just that bit of extra effort to help the world be a better place.
If nothing else, they’ll learn that everything isn’t always as it seems, but that doesn’t always mean it’s a bad thing.
I teach sixth graders.
Every once in a while I have a parent who insists her sixth grader still believes in Santa Claus.
My personal opinion is that for many adults, the whole Santa thing has nothing to do with their children.
And what premise might that be?
‘Arguably’ being the operative word. Deception is malicious. It is not exercised with the benefit of the deceived in mind. Fantasy, imagination, fairy tales, on the other hand, are told kids to delight and entertain them.
I gather you inferred this. I did not imply it. I spoke of those who do eschew play and fantasy specifically.
I did read it. And was thinking that ‘his wife may be an Aspie’. People with Asperger’s syndrome have real issues with taking things other than literally. They will definitely feel ‘deceived’ when situations like this arise. They also have major trouble with jokes and humour because, again, taking things literally precludes ‘getting’ jokes. And I was thinking that you’d have to watch your kids for these tendencies, and if you decided one kid had them then you’d probably have to avoid doing things they won’t understand because I know people with Asperger’s and they do have a hard time of it.
Which is why I said I felt sad for people. But it would be far too much of a stretch to assume that everybody who insists that Harry Potter is the devil’s work is an Aspie, although I suppose it could be possible. We know there are literalists and that there are a lot of people who live by black-and-white thinking. We also know this is known as distorted thinking. So I do, literally, feel sorry for them. They’re missing out on a lot.
Exactly the distinction I was illustrating in my post.
The words you wrote did make the implication, in the context of this thread.
Witness:
Look at that first sentence. In reading your post, we assume you are saying something relevant to the thread you are posting to. You must be telling us you feel sorry for certain people on this thread. Which people? The ones, apparently, whom you believe regard fantasy and make-believe as deceit. Who would you think this about? Well, this is a thread about santa claus, an example of a fantastic make-believe entity, and in this thread, some have said they regard telling kids that Santa is real as a deceptive act. So, the most reasonable interpretation of what you’ve said, is that you feel sorry for those people. The ones who think that it is deceptive to tell kids that Santa Claus is real. Most importantly, the reasoning that allows me to understand which people you are talking about relied on a premise that the reason you feel sorry for this class of people is that you believe the members of this class think that fantasy and imagination constitute forms of deceit.
But you’re wrong–they don’t believe fantasy and imagination constitute forms of deceit.
If you already know that this is true–esp. if you already know that no one on this thread has said anything to peg them as people who do think fantasy and imagination are ways to decieve–then your post is completely irrelevant to the thread. You’re not talking about anyone here, and you’re not talking about anyone we’re talking about.
She’s got a very vivid imagination. Also, she has none of the symptoms of Aspberger’s. She is, however, very trusting, and very willing to rely on others’ promises and others’ testimony about things. This aspect of her personality probably has something to do with her reaction as a child to the “big reveal.”
This conversation has an eerie inverse relationship with some things that went on between you and others in the punctuality conversation. Had you noticed that? 
As I said above in this post, I do not believe the interpretation of your post you are giving here is a plausible interpretation of the text of the post itself. But I will take it as given that this is what you meant.
-FrL-
Correct.
Nope. I didn’t mean the two to be equated. However if the shoe fits…
I don’t think you can say that definitively of anyone unless you know that for sure. You can assert it about yourself and I’ll believe you. I still can’t begin to see how a person can call the Santa myth ‘deceit’. It is not meant with malice. It is meant as entertainment and as a kindness. Now, if you knew for certain that the person you’re dealing with doesn’t understand fantasy and make-believe and set out to tell them a fantasy anyway in the guise of reality, you’d be guilty of ‘deceit’ but not if you thought that the person would enjoy the fantasy or story.
I don’t think you can definitively say that. Some people, either writing or reading, will do both and will fall into that group.
Then again, it’s about knowing your audience. If you’re dealing with a particularly guileless individual, then yes, you may need to adjust your actions accordingly.
Only in that people who have personal sensitivities might read a personal remark into something that wasn’t meant to be taken that way 
Thanks. I understand your empathy for your wife’s situation. But not every kid is the same as your wife and not every kid will be wounded by the Santa myth. As evidenced here, most folks haven’t been.
However it is true that people should know their own children and, if you have a particularly sensitive sort or one more given to the kind of belief that your wife is, you might wish to tread more carefully. I put it to you, however, that her sort of person is more the exception than the rule so that, given we are not talking about dealing with strangers but with one’s own children, it’s unlikely to be so common a situation that every parent need worry about offending a child. In short, it doesn’t need to be a general rule.
Your premise appears to be that not telling children Santa is real is equivalent to totally eschewing pretend play:
Perhaps in your experience, children don’t really believe what their parents tell them? Well, for at least some of us, we as children believed what our parents said, and/or we assume that our kids will believe us.
Trust me, your pity is wasted on us (not to mention being rather supercilious). I’m getting ready to go “ride horses” with my daughter so we can find her imaginary pony Princess, who got lost. For me, there is a clear difference between engaging in pretend together, and trying to get her to truly believe something that’s not true. Oh, and if “deceive” doesn’t fit that action, what would you prefer? Is “mislead” OK? Because I can’t come up with anything less judgmental for the act of trying to get someone to believe something that’s not true.
I really think you’re getting downright offensive here. It’s not enough to characterize my life as “barren and hard-edged,” you have to imply that those who disagree with you suffer some sort of emotional retardation or mental illness?!
What I meant is that people who say “santa claus isn’t something we should tell our kids about” don’t necessarily think fantasy is deceit. Some do, some don’t. That was my point. It seemed to me your post relied on a presumption that those who say this, at least here on this thread, are, every one of them, saying it because they believe fantasy is deceit. You’ve already explained this is not what you meant, though.
Similar comment here as my comment above in this post. I wasn’t saying all kids are wounded by the Santa story. I was saying some are. I was saying this because there is a sentiment being expressed on this thread that seems to amount to saying that none are.
Absolutely right, and I have not been trying to claim otherwise.
-FrL-
I already said I don’t but that it can be the case for some.
Have you told your kids about sex? Will you tell them if you lose your job? If their dog dies? What about when they’re pre-schoolers? How much ‘truth’ do you need to jam down their throats when they’re still little? I’m the first to say you need to tell your teen that not every person is honest, that promotions in life tend to be about contacts rather than about merit, etc. But there’s plenty of time for that.
There is a sliding scale of what’s important to be told as truth. Imaginary gift-givers is at the bottom of that scale. ‘We will invade because Saddam has WMDs’ is at the top. Do you not make any distinction?
:rolleyes: I’ll be glad when people regard ailments of the mind as of little more consequence than your typical physical ailment and, most especially, not as though it’s an insult to mention them as possibility for consideration.
It’s sad if you can’t enjoy life fully because something prevents you from doing so. I’m sad for people who are allergic to chocolate. I’m also sad for people who get offended at the drop of a hat. It’s not ‘pity’. ‘Pity’ implies a feeling of superiority and an air of condescension. It’s empathy.
And, at the point Mom and Dad are continuing the “pretending” past the point of reason, its sad. Santa is generally a short term sort of thing. At some point you have to take your child’s lead in helping them figure it out and let go of the fantasy. Some kids will pretend to believe for a lot longer than they actually do (fine), some families develop a “don’t ask, don’t tell - wink, wink” sort of relationship with “Santa” (fine). But developing a sense for the difference between fantasy and reality is a critical development skill - and parents who don’t allow that to happen are doing the equivelent of not potty training their kids in order to keep them babies.
Respectively, yes (preliminarily), if I lost my job I wouldn’t have a kid anymore 
, yes, she is a preschooler, and I don’t jam anything down her throat, just answer her questions as they come up in a manner she can currently understand. It’s not like I wake her up in the morning with, “Hey honey, guess what! All living things die!” But for instance, we just this hour read a book about penguins, which says right out that the father keeps the chick on his feet, otherwise it would get too cold and die. I didn’t edit that out, and it didn’t seem to faze her.
Of course I do. Honestly, if you have a better term for trying to convince someone of something that isn’t true, I’ll be glad to use it. “Fantasy” doesn’t work for me, because it implies that the other person is aware of the non-reality of the proposition.
I happen to have a mental illness, and I agree that I would prefer such illnesses to lose their “bad character” stigma. Regardless, it’s still insulting to insinuate that someone who has a different reaction from yours must necessarily be emotionally retarded. I’m not engaging in stigmatizing mental illness so much as protesting your offhand devaluation of someone else’s reaction. While acknowledging that someone has brain damage isn’t an insult, wouldn’t it be insulting for me to tell someone that their spouse must be brain damaged because they don’t understand, oh, let’s say the Rule Against Perpetuities?
I’ll take you at your word and assure you that not having believed in Santa, and not teaching the Santa story to my kid as truth, has IMHO improved my enjoyment of life, if anything. I enjoy life a lot, and part of how I do it is using my imagination. Thanks for your concern, though.
I knew someone would call me on that after I posted it. Nothing. It’s just a tough row to hoe when you’re 8 years old, to lose belief in not only Santa, but God, and everything your parents have told you that you took on faith.
He’s a very cheerful, funny, upbeat person, but his attitude is “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die,” and he points to his loss of belief in Santa as a turning point for him on that. Granted, the way he found out was his mother, in a fit of pique, screaming, “Oh yeah, and guess what, you little brat! There’s no Santa Claus!”
For those of you who tell your kids about Santa, I don’t recommend that be the way you break the truth to them. 
Boy, I know the problem. I felt the same way when I learned Jesus wasn’t real.
Just curious are you saying you believe a man named Jesus never lived to be the inspiration for founding a huge number of religions or are you just saying Jesus is not the son of God?
I find it easy to believe Jesus was not the son of God, but I find it hard to believe he did not exist at all.
Jim
"Daddy!!..
"Santa came…!!!
"And he brought me… a BARBIE BIKE!!!
“How does Santa know I like Barbie stuff?”
“Because Santa loves you very much, Sophie.”
And when she finds out, I’ll explain that regardless of who Santa is, it is, and will always be, a truth that Santa does love her very much.
Jesus is a mythical person based on other mythical beings, most notably Attis, Osiris and Adonis. I find it very easy to believe that he never existed, just as I find it easy to believe Neptune, Zeus and Odin never existed. The fact that they’re mythical doesn’t keep them from being inspirational.
DeathLlama and I are in disagreement on this. He wants to because he talks about the magic of it all; I just see no real reason.
It isn’t “Imagination be damned! Protect the children from the lie! Shelter and smother them!” kind of thing. I just don’t see a reason to do it. No argument I’ve heard or read–and I’ve seen it here many times, and have heard hubby’s opinions many times–really sells the position to me. It just seems a really weird custom, and I see no need for it at all. I don’t want to be militant: “No one mention Santa in the presence of my child!” I just don’t want to actively be doing things like writing “from Santa” on gifts, writing letters to Santa, leaving out milk and cookies, etc. It just seems odd. It is a deception, sweet and imaginative and harmless as many may say it is (and is in all likelihood), and that is admittedly part of why I have trouble with it (different from faith, where one may genuinely believe in God or genuinely doesn’t know and therefore isn’t deliberately deceiving; I have yet to meet an adult who genuinely believes in Santa).
FTR, I never believed in Santa, not because of anything more than having 2 older sisters who told me from the get-go he was imaginary. Didn’t make sense to me, anyway, even at the most tender ages. And for the record, I had a remarkably vivid and creative imagination as a child–my parents and teachers would vouch for that.
Interesting discussion. I’m not really comfortable with teaching my future children that Santa exists, and neither is my husband. I think there are a ton of ways we can explore the fantasy and wonder of all the Christmas stories while still conveying reality. I wasn’t happy when I found out Santa wasn’t real–and I was (and continue to be) one of the most imaginative “kids” on the planet. I would say I’m balanced somewhere between seeing the myth as a way to shelter kids from reality and on the more neutral end not really seeing a compelling reason. I don’t think this belief in itself can do serious lasting harm… but “it doesn’t hurt anything” isn’t really compelling enough for me to want to buy into it. And the “critical thinking” argument is interesting but I still more or less feel the way I do.
Hell, I’m not even sure I’m comfortable with us celebrating Christmas, but I probably won’t be able to get out of that one owing to my husband’s fondness for the occasion.
Eh, I wasn’t “thrilled” with the idea of doing Santa either.
But I was less thrilled with the idea of my four year-old breaking into tears when she realizes the good time everybody else is having.
I mean… who, exactly, would I be taking a stand against? Santa? No, he doesn’t exist. Society? Eh, they don’t give a shiite. My little girl? Well… she will be the one who has to endure the consequences, so yeah: take that Sophie! No Santa for you!