Santa Claus: To Perpetuate the Tale to Children or Not?

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
And getting back to Santa, I think it’s not very nice to take away an experience that a kid ordinarily shares with peers. You want your kid to feel bad? Let him or her listen to all the fun that all the other kids are having while the rug’s been yanked out from under their own. Let your kid be the odd one out. Because that feels just grand, that does.
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Just out of curiosity, what do you think happens to kids who are of religions that don’t practice Christmas? Are their parents “taking away an experience” that a kid in the US would normally share with his peers? Christmas isn’t a universal practice, and people survive without it all the time, even here in the US were Santa is plastered everywhere starting on October 1.

I had a friend in elementary school was Jewish who was very vocal in his anti-Santa campaign. I remember in 4th grade, Santa came to our class (this would never happen now-- there is no Christmas in public schools) and Ian had the best time interrogating Santa about how he was a good kid but Santa wasn’t coming to his house because he was a JEW, so either Santa was a bigot or the guy was an actor playing him. By then, I’d already figured out he wasn’t real, so I thought it was funny. But I think Ian was a bit hurt by the whole thing-- awfully cynical at 9.

Eh, I guess I’ll worry about it when/if it comes up with my (currently non-existent) kid. I certainly won’t indoctrinate him into belief, though. Or lie to him about something which, to me, is a bit ridiculous. JMO, of course.

82

Lets see, the only kid in the first or second grade that does not believe.

The only kid in the 4th or 5th grade who does believe.

Ever been the odd kid in school, I mean for real. There is nothing meaner than elementary school children.

You want deliberately set them up for beatings, ridicule or to be ostracized?

This is in addition to all the other good points that many have made.

Fro me, it was about the times, the place and the outside conditions and the extended family traditions.

So folks will blow all that off and some won’t. Some make sensible compromises.

Some people teach inflexibility.

83

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Just out of curiosity, what do you think happens to kids who are of religions that don’t practice Christmas?
[/QUOTE]

But Santa isn’t Christian, right? Isn’t that what we always hear, complaints that Santa takes the Christ out of Christmas?

Frankly, I think he’s better – no books, no rules, no institutions and employees requiring weekly donations. Just shows up annually, doles out some stuff and splits, no strings attached. He may be the world’s best-known atheist.

Seems to me like anyone of any faith could introduce the Santa myth without betraying allegiance to another group.

84

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Just out of curiosity, what do you think happens to kids who are of religions that don’t practice Christmas? Are their parents “taking away an experience” that a kid in the US would normally share with his peers? Christmas isn’t a universal practice, and people survive without it all the time, even here in the US were Santa is plastered everywhere starting on October 1.
[/QUOTE]

We are a house of an atheist and a Deist. Santa is secular in our house. My experience with kids that aren’t Christian (almost all of our friends) is that most of their parents choose to do the Santa thing as a secular thing. The ones that don’t are often not isolated - i.e. they are Jewish and live in Jewish neighborhoods and have a lot of Jewish friends.

But not all people choose to participate in Santa - sometimes for cultural/religious reasons. That’s fine. Sometimes because they carry their own Santa baggage. That’s fine too. You get to choose how to raise your kids.
I admit I find people who don’t have kids who say “we won’t do the Santa thing because we will never lie to our children” to be cute. Because while you get to choose how to raise your kids, it generally doesn’t turn out to be how you thought it would happen before you had kids.

85

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
“Ghosts are afraid of cats”. So if you have a cat with you, you do not need to worry about ghosts.
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Stephen King’s Sleepwalkers plays on this idea, too. It’s worth its own thread. I think I came up with this one just about the same time I started thinking about ghosts and monsters. Lucky for me I had been adopted by a kitten at around that same time.

As for Santa Claus, I’ve kinda included him in with the concepts of Avalon & middle Earth (not Tolkein’s specifically, but the general principle of the realm between this existence and the supernatural). In essence, as long as you believe in them they are real and you are part of that realm as well as this one. But as you allow reason to usurp control of your mind, you become less and less able to believe and so they become less real as far as you’re concerned. I must have put it very eloquently because not only did all three of them get it, they started teaching their friends. Kids rule.

86

[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya]
Stephen King’s Sleepwalkers plays on this idea, too. It’s worth its own thread. I think I came up with this one just about the same time I started thinking about ghosts and monsters. Lucky for me I had been adopted by a kitten at around that same time.
…snip…
[/QUOTE]

If you start that thread, toss a link here or PM me.

87

So this point about kids glomming onto santa without parental assistance is a pretty interesting one.

Our kid is approaching two years old right now, so this kind of thing hasn’t happened yet. But I suppose it might start in the next year or two.

I hereby resolve, when that happens, to come back and report here on the Dope how it goes down. I’ll tell you how we handle it.

My wife is the one with the strong objections to telling our kid that Santa doesn’t exist. But I’m not sure where she would stand on the issue of divesting him of belief given that he acquires the belief from elsewhere.

I asked her about it yesterday and she said she plans to explain who the “real” saint nicholas is and the story that is told about him that leads to the traditional legend of Santa Claus. (An interesting procedure as it relies on a myth, itself…) I gather from this that she indeed plans on divesting our kid of the Santa belief, though with an attempt to contextualize others’ Santa beliefs in a way that is supposed to allow our kid to go on celebrating it along with other kids.

To be frank I suspect she does not have a plan designed for this specific contingency, so I don’t really know what to expect.

I have let it be known that I plan to remain openly non-commital on the existence or non existence of the traditional Santa Claus.

Anyway, once this has all played out I’ll let you guys know how it goes down. :slight_smile:

-FrL-

88

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Just out of curiosity, what do you think happens to kids who are of religions that don’t practice Christmas?
[/QUOTE]

They have families and peers who similarly don’t ‘practice Christmas’, correct?

89

[QUOTE=Frylock]
So this point about kids glomming onto santa without parental assistance is a pretty interesting one.

Our kid is approaching two years old right now, so this kind of thing hasn’t happened yet. But I suppose it might start in the next year or two.

I hereby resolve, when that happens, to come back and report here on the Dope how it goes down. I’ll tell you how we handle it.

My wife is the one with the strong objections to telling our kid that Santa doesn’t exist. But I’m not sure where she would stand on the issue of divesting him of belief given that he acquires the belief from elsewhere.

I asked her about it yesterday and she said she plans to explain who the “real” saint nicholas is and the story that is told about him that leads to the traditional legend of Santa Claus. (An interesting procedure as it relies on a myth, itself…) I gather from this that she indeed plans on divesting our kid of the Santa belief, though with an attempt to contextualize others’ Santa beliefs in a way that is supposed to allow our kid to go on celebrating it along with other kids.

To be frank I suspect she does not have a plan designed for this specific contingency, so I don’t really know what to expect.

I have let it be known that I plan to remain openly non-commital on the existence or non existence of the traditional Santa Claus.

Anyway, once this has all played out I’ll let you guys know how it goes down. :slight_smile:

-FrL-
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I’m guessing you’ll get to cross this bridge next Christmas - unless he doesn’t see other kids and doesn’t watch T.V. Two is young for Santa - three to five is prime age - maybe until six. By first grade they’ve been exposed to the non-believers - but some kids continue to believe for quite a while.

If you choose to do the whole “Santa is a myth, but a fun myth and we pretend” sort of thing, you have to simultaneously teach a three year old how to keep a big secret. I suppose you don’t have to, but having a three year old who announces to their pre-school that “Santa isn’t real, my Daddy says” is bound to make you the most popular parents since my five year old had her ethical vegetarian period.

Seriously, the religious war in my daughter’s first grade (she was a non-believer - having a eight year old brother helped) caused her a lot of pain. She lost a few friends defending the “facts.” And while I’m proud of her for standing firm with what she knew to be the truth, first graders don’t have a lot of tact (my daughter included) and she lost a few friends.

90

I feel the same way about parents who take their young children to protest rallies - it’s asking a lot to expect kids to understand nuances and meaning that really only apply to adults.

The whole concept of reality is pretty fluid for my twins right now - they think their dreams are real, and everything happened “yesterday.”

91

Hard Atheist : I do it - for the glass of sherry and biscuits.

92

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Hard Atheist : I do it - for the glass of sherry and biscuits.
[/QUOTE]

Sherry? Damn, and after all this time I’ve been leaving out milk I could have been leaving aout a pitcher of daiquiri!

93

[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
They have families and peers who similarly don’t ‘practice Christmas’, correct?
[/QUOTE]

Everyone has peers who don’t believe in Santa…unless your kid only has Christian friends, 100% of whose families celebrate an Xmas with Santa. I had friends who did and didn’t believe growing up. Unless you live in a very homogenous community, I’m sure your child has peers whose families do not initiate or perpetuate belief. I wouldn’t decide to tell my kid about Santa just so he’d fit in with his peers, or out of fear that he’d get beaten up for not believing in Santa. That seems a bit daft to me and runs contrary to my experience IRL.

I know there are Jewish families who do Xmas and Santa, but there are a lot more who don’t, in my experience. I would never say that they “should” because everyone else is doing it. :confused: Are people really saying that?

94

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
I know there are Jewish families who do Xmas and Santa, but there are a lot more who don’t, in my experience. I would never say that they “should” because everyone else is doing it. :confused: Are people really saying that?
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I absolutely won’t argue that everyone “should”, because that would be insane. Religious intolerance blah blah blah, Nazis and yellow stars, blah blah blah.
But honestly, in my heart, sometimes I wish everyone would just DO whatever and shut the F up.

If you think THIS is a weighty issue, just wait 'til you have kids yourself and start hearing all the crap about breast v. bottle, CIO v. co-sleeping, what are they eating for breakfast, when did they potty train, who’s a better mother, what’s the ALL TIME ABSOLUTE BEST way to raise a kid, the answer’s right here and I can PROVE it!

Ugh!

I love debate, but it gets NUTS.

Santa. Fat guy. Red suit. Chimney. Reindeer. Brings a toy.
Just do it and shut up.

95

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Everyone has peers who don’t believe in Santa…unless your kid only has Christian friends, 100% of whose families celebrate an Xmas with Santa. I had friends who did and didn’t believe growing up. Unless you live in a very homogenous community, I’m sure your child has peers whose families do not initiate or perpetuate belief. I wouldn’t decide to tell my kid about Santa just so he’d fit in with his peers, or out of fear that he’d get beaten up for not believing in Santa. That seems a bit daft to me and runs contrary to my experience IRL.

I know there are Jewish families who do Xmas and Santa, but there are a lot more who don’t, in my experience. I would never say that they “should” because everyone else is doing it. :confused: Are people really saying that?
[/QUOTE]

No, I’m not saying that.

96

Sorry.

Time for me to step AWAY from the computer.

97

[QUOTE=fessie]
I absolutely won’t argue that everyone “should”, because that would be insane. Religious intolerance blah blah blah, Nazis and yellow stars, blah blah blah.
[/quote]

It’s cool that you realize you are being intolerant in your wish everyone would just agree with you and go along with your beliefs. Cf.:

No. Just do what you want and don’t tell other people what they should just because you do it, esp. when their beliefs don’t jibe with belief in Santa. And shut up about it. Right?

This thread has kind of blown my mind. I had no idea people thought Santa was such an important thing. I’m learning a lot these days about how important people think things are that to me are optional frivolities. Huh. Anyway, not a huge fan of Santa or Xmas, but I won’t know how I’ll deal with it until I have kids. I’m certainly less inclined to indoctrinate my kids now that I realize people are so fanatical and pushy about it. It’s just weird to me.

98

[QUOTE=China Guy]
. . . we have fun every xmas preparing beer and cookies for Santa. . .
[/QUOTE]

Wait - Santa gets beer and cookies at your house?