Off Topic:
Does anyone have the full version of this? I saw one that then goes to show them catapulting the ring.
Skald the Rhymer said:
True, but (1) I can’t think it would be a huge percentage of the force, simply because the relative comfort levels are so skewed to begin with; (2) the tech factor means their weapons and equipment will rapidly become useless for holding their newly acquired power - how then will they retain control? Someone is bound to think “You know, without your rifles, explosives, and trucks, you’re not all that tough.” Will there be enough to provide mutual support and defense? shrug
As an aside, Skald, what’s with the modifier!name construction?
Martial Arts training.
Weapons Training.
Conserving ammunition for the major defenses. You don’t send out patrols with guns after Sauron falls, you send them out with swords and bows. Hence my bit about hiring some of the Rohirrim - they would be needed to train and support my guys.
Some joker attacks Chimeraville on Baranduin? Surprise, I still have cannons and some small arms for my defense.
And Muskets. Don’t forget Muskets. We’ll have our forces converted within the year.
You’re not going to be producing muskets in any number within a year. See Eric Flint’s 1632 series for the difficulties in introducing 20th or even 19th century technology to a 17th century base, and these people are not at a 17th century level. There’s no coal, no oil on Middle-earth. The hottest fires you’re going to get are from charcoal, and that takes a lot of wood. There are no machine shops, no concept of mass or uniform production. The highest tech you have here is a forge. I’m not sure these people even have paper, but they certainly don’t have printing presses.
Five thousand people isn’t very many, and most of them will probably want to return to the comforts of living in the here and now. Of the rest, how many technical experts do you really think you’ll have? Metallurgists, chemists, machinists? You’ll probably have a fairly good base of mechanical tinkerers, people who can fix broken equipment and so forth, but they’ll have their hands full just maintaining the equipment you’ve got.
Yeah, you can conserve what you have for a while, convert some of it to use more primitive ammo. But the chances are pretty good that you aren’t going to be making five thousand muskets within a year of arrival, and don’t forget that whatever technology you introduce will spread. Is an arms race and mass industrialization really what you want to introduce to this world? Who needs Saruman, when they’ll have you?
You’ll need to produce primitive cannons, too. Primitive muskets dont provide very much edge against trained enemies with melee weapons (or really really strong orks, same diff.) Their advantage was more political, in that A) it gave kings the ability to recruit from the lower classes, eventually contributing to lessening the power of the nobility, but more importantly B) it made the average commoner, once equipped with this weapon, into almost the equal of the very expensive mailed knight on a horse with decades of experience. But it doesn’t make the commoner better than them.
See Isandlwana. Now, the Zulus were worse hand to hand combatters than pretty much anyone in Middle Earth except human commoners, and they still defeated a British force when not very outnumbered in the grand scheme of things re: our little scenario. And the British had rifles and artillery.
If the Marines get attacked by an entire Orc army with just muskets and melee weapons, they are so hosed. And that’s not even mentioning the Oliphaunts and Trolls: how many long range musket shots would you need to take them out?
So I’d propose getting into an alliance with the Dwarves. They’d probably love to learn the secrets of manufacturing cannon since they are creatures of Aule, and would be able to outperform our own engineers with a little bit of study (especially since they know the native materials,) and they’re stubborn and reclusive enough that Sauron would probably not learn their craft.
It came from a group I used to frequent on Usenet. I don’t remember which one, but I’m fairly certain it wasn’t talk.origins. 
They must have paper, parchment, or papryus; consider the Red Book itself.
True; I don’t think you can make books from parchment. And come to think of it, when Frodo looks in Galadriel’s mirror, he sees among other things Bilbo amongst his papers. OK, so paper is available.
Paraphrasing you but not attributing: “Here’s a bunch of reasons why this won’t work”.
Which is why YOU would fail at this.
Well, it’s not like we’re going to get a lab to try it out. So believe whatever you want. But I don’t think you’d have widespread distribution of muskets by the end of a year.
Dwarves.
Probably your best bet.
I may have said “converted by next year”, but I never said we’d have 5,000 of them. And perhaps I mispoke a bit.
Start with 5,000 Mercs.
Subtract battle losses, desertions, loss to illnesses.
After the war, subtract those who want to remain in Gondor or join the Rohirrim, or if the offer is made, Go Home.
I honestly would not expect to have more than about 2,000 remaining, tops.
Add another 500 Gondorian Smiths and Stonemasons, and Rohirrim mercs.
Add perhaps another 1,500 war brides, refugees and orphans.
So maybe 4,000 total people joining me on the road up to the Brandywine. TOPS.
I have to imagine that we have SOME ammunition remaining. We also have a lot of leftover steel (helmets, rifles, machinery) that we can beat into plowshares or muskets.
4,000 people is still, by far, the largest settlement in the entire dead kingdom of Eriador. Bree is described as pretty much the ONLY settlement between itself and the sea, excluding the hobbits, and that is only “one hundred houses”. So even if I split my people between one major settlement lower on the Baranduin and one at the Ford on the road, I’m still the dominant force in Eriador. Whether I call myself King, or “Prince of Baranduin” hardly makes a difference at that point. A dozen Numenorians coming in all bent out of shape about a title can be dealt with primarily by diplomacy. (“Name your King and I shall honor him if he honors my own claims”)
I don’t expect to be at war with anyone at that point, other than mopping up operations against scattered groups of Orcs and other fell creatures remaining from the war. So I don’t, and would not anyway, keep my entire force of people under arms. Most of them are left to other devices, such as building our fair city and learning crafts to support themselves.
But then again, all of that is assuming that we win the war, which I feel is a really good shot with this force, but is not an absolute certainty. We tend to gloss over a lot of the other logistics of the operation, like feeding this force in a fairly empty land, and with the vehicles, the very idea of keeping them fueled up.
Which of course, means nothing at all if the Ring somehow finds it’s way into my encampment and my force destroys itself as everyone tries to take it for themselves.
Chimera said:
I will grant you that the Martial Arts training will give your guys individual prowess and some level of protection from bar brawls and the like. But what Weapons training do you think your folks have that is going to be significant once the weapons with which they are trained are depleted? You may have some ammo left, but fuel is going to be used up quickly, and unless you can convert them to ethanol/biodiesel, you are going to lose that advantage quickly. And your ammo won’t last indefinitely - maybe if you reserve it for defense, but then your mercs are now [del]worthless[/del] not properly trained to the available weapons. You seriously think your mercs have better sword, spear, axe skills than the locals? Really?
Um, yeah, because Rohirrim are known for their fraternization with outsiders and their habit of training outsiders in their skills. Or their reputation as mercenaries. (I suppose some of them might be willing to be mercenaries, but I don’t think the lot of them are wired that way. I could be wrong.)
And just how many muskets will you have, how quickly, and how much advantage do you think that really conveys? And while you are converting to muskets, you are essentially starting an arms race that anyone can follow. 21st century military weapons are something locals can’t hope to match, but anything you can develop from in sutu resources is copyable by locals. Maybe even the same sources you use. (What’s to keep those Dwarves you trade with from selling off muskets to Gondor, the Rohirrim, and anybody else that coughs up gold?)
2,000? I think you are grossly overestimating the perks you have to offer those mercs. I’d be surprised if you had more than 50 join you.
Remember, with the disparity of economies, those guys are going to have a far cushier and more fun life as a merc to Skald, stomping baddies whereever, getting paid appropriately, then relaxing on Reisa or chillin’ in a holodeck or whatever, than they would being a king themselves in Middle Earth. These guys aren’t going to want to surrender their livelihoods to be mere soldiers to your cause - they’ll want to be nobles in their own right. And why are they going to want to be your vassels, come to think of it? I mean, it’s one thing to serve your command because Skald told them that’s the job, but quite another to continue to follow you after the ring is destroyed and Sauron is gone. What makes you more worthy than, say, Colonel Broadshoulders, or Sargeant Major Iron-britches? If he’s got the ambition to give up being a merc for the “good life” in Middle Earth, then he’s got the ambition to be the top dog, not second banana.
“Wait, I gave up piles of credit and all the babes I can [del]rent[/del] impress with my prowess for a life of being a merchant, selling trinkets for pocket change?”
I think you’re seriously overestimating the number that will stay, underestimating the difficulties of retaining military superiority, and totally failing to grasp the motivating factors of your potential henchmen.
Nitpick: It’s “Risa.”
FINE. (Bastards!)
HELP WANTED
Settlers for Middle Earth.
Lush, unoccupied land on the Brandywine river are yours for the claiming. Bring your own tools, chickens and cuttings. Or settle in town and learn a skill.
Mix and mingle with Hobbits, Dwarves and Numenorians. Learn Elfish from actual Elves. Tom Bombodil only a short journey away (ware the Barrow Wights!).
Limited Time Offer!
This is a One Way Trip!
What’s the point of learning Sindarin or Quenya? Aren’t you headed to the very beginning of the Fourth Age, when the Elves are leaving anyway?
Because some people WILL want to come along just to see and speak to Elves.
Then when the Elves have gone, they’ll dress up like them and become the Middle Earth equivalent of Vampires and Furries. 