Not one Monty Python quote in your rebuttal.
What a disappointment you are to your fans.
You’re obviously getting me confused with someone else. But then again, confusion seems to be regular state.
Still…fuck off Hewey.
You know the hardest thing about posting to you? I actually named one of my kids Hewey. Too fucken late now to change it though.
And just posting again to mention that > 90% of the blokes on this page understand the concerns and are willing to take them onboard, if they haven’t already. In fact, many of them are more strident feminists than ME!!
But there’s still some who are posting for shits and giggles. Le sigh.
Tonight I’ve found myself wondering which side the women in this thread were on when rap music began referring to women as “bitches” and “hoes” and filling its songs with lines like “Get down on your knees and suck my badass dick,” or, “Baby girl ass jiggle like she want more.”
And of course the use of “shorty” to refer to women or girlfriends.
People with values similar to mine were critical of this stuff. However I can’t recall any objection at all coming from those with your values.
Did any of you ever ask whether these guys would want their sisters or daughters spoken of in this way? Did you not feel that such lyrics debased and trivialized all women? Can any of you point to where you found any of this to be even close to “hot chick” on the objectification and disrespect scale, and voiced this opinion?
And if not, why not?
My last experience with ‘pop’ music was John Denver.
Try harder next time Old Fella, or is ‘old’ an abusive term?
Do what? Here in the real world, people have been fighting against the sexism in rap for decades. Keep up.
Nice try at deflecting, but let’s get back to the real issue: you think you only have to be respectful to pretty little nice girls and you don’t see that this opinion is a bad reflection on you.
It’s good to know that whataboutism isn’t limited to political issues. :rolleyes:
The best I can come up with is “gal.” Looking it up, I don’t see the same label of “sometimes offensive” that I see on “chick.” And I’ve personally heard a lot less about “gal” being a problem.
“Girl” also works in some contexts–usually as direct address. It seems to be used the same way as “man” or “bro” are used in conversation. And “gal” is just a variation of “girl,” but without the “little kid” implications.
That said, I don’t know how actual women feel about the term. I’m just guessing.
There’s also “dudette,” but no one uses that anymore. I only ever heard it from the surfing dude culture as portrayed on television.
Most of us white folks didn’t and don’t listen to rap music, and about the only times we’re inadvertently exposed to it is when it’s blasting from some other car when we’re stuck in traffic.
Because in the words of Dylan, you “don’t criticize what you can’t understand.” As a white guy, I still have no idea whether lyrics like that were the bread and butter of rap lyrics, or whether they were some outlier, or somewhere in between.
And at the time these issues were being raised - generally by outraged white conservatives like you who were probably unfamiliar with even the white popular music of the time - it sure seemed like it was an attempt by said white conservatives to stampede the rest of us white types into attacking rap music as a whole, and from there, attacking ‘degenerate’ black culture generally.
I didn’t feel like being a pawn in someone else’s game, especially not in a game being run by people like you.
Well, in the real world people don’t think terms like “hot chick” is insulting or demeaning. However, we’re talking about what goes on here at the Dope, and I can’t recall any condemnation of it at all coming from the board’s left-wing posters. If anything, it drew lip-service disapproval if mentioned, but the overall tone of the board has been to defend rap in all its forms and to hurl insults at any who criticize it.
Oh, but I’m not deflecting. I’m trying to determine why certain, much worse types of references to women have gotten a free pass.
In other words, I’m trying to determine whether there might be motives or resentments underlying objection to the term “hot chick” and other acknowledgements of female attractiveness that extend beyond claims that they are demeaning and dehumanizing to women.
This in light of the fact that there has been little to no objection to much worse (and more influential) language coming from the entertainment community and broadcast to a much larger segment of the population.
I have no idea where you got this idea.
Just tonight, as a matter of fact, I held the door at a 7-11 store for a plain, frumpy and grumpy looking middle-aged woman who, to all outward appearances, has led a fairly unfortunate life.
Did Dylan also advocate vigorously defending music you can’t understand?
Such defense is certainly what I’ve seen anytime the subject has been broached here.
I should think that even if you hadn’t felt like being a pawn in someone else’s game, the same temerity you felt at criticizing such music would extend to defending it as well. You know, given your lack of exposure to and understanding of it, etc.
And I’d still be interested in answers to the questions posed above. They seem quite on point to me and worthy of considerably more than being cavalierly handwaved away as “whataboutism.”
Or could it be that the answers might reveal an inconvenient truth?
You’re confusing ‘the real world’ and ‘the inside of your head’ again. Please stop.
Probably not.
Cites, please.
Looking forward to seeing the threads you link to.
Some of us aren’t big on using our Ignore lists, even on people like SA.
I hardly think cites are necessary, since you’ve already acknowledged your motives for such defense yourself just a few posts above.
And now, as often happens about this time of night, I must bid you adieu.
I won’t say so, however, because doing so might piss off Guinastasia.
No, I think of the debate over the evils of rap as a very 1990s debate, one that AFAICT has been pretty much dead for years. So AFAIAC, you’re attempting to say, “ha gotcha, you didn’t behave consistently with this 25 years ago.”
But might I ask, just as a courtesy, that you spin off the ‘people’s responses to misogynistic rap lyrics v. people’s responses to ‘hot chick’’ discussion as a new thread? I suspect it might totally hijack this one.
I still look forward to seeing your links.
It’s well known among people who take rap seriously as a musical genre that (esp. mainstream) rap has a lot of problems with misogyny and glorification of violence. The objections you see aren’t that mainstream rap doesn’t have those problems, but rather that conservatives tend to use this to make odd assertions – therefore rap isn’t music, therefore rap cannot explore any serious themes, therefore rap is a lower artform, therefore rap isn’t worth paying attention to, therefore the scary blacks are violent and misogynistic and bad.
That or it’s used as a deflection from any attempt to take rap seriously, like if somebody wants to discuss the racial politics in a song “okay but what about the word ‘bitches’” comes up to derail everything, as surely as the deflection of “but what about men” does when talking about rape as a women’s issue.
Rap, hiphop, and related art forms are as worthy of critique as any other, and you can absolutely bet your bottom dollar that there are countless good-faith feminist critiques of various misogynistic rap songs. However, it’s also often used as deflection, or to perpetuate disguised racism.