School shooters are my heroes

Victims who kill themselves, or attempt to do so either while the bullying is occuring or later in life owing to the long term effects, and those who shoot their tormentors, are only the tip of the iceberg.

Many parents who psychologically harm their children believe they are right in doing so - and often use the rationalization of “naughtiness” as an excuse.

It is indeed a generalization but when the degree of accrued psychological harm becomes too much then the victim often becomes a perpetrator and thus a member of the next generation of school bullies.

That’s how it’s passed from generation to generation.

Jorolat

Why is self-esteem for losers?

Scylla wrote:

HOMER SIMPSON: You should try to be more like that heroic little Timmy.
LISA SIMPSON: What did Timmy do that was so heroic?
HOMER SIMPSON: He, um, fell down a well!

Jeremy’s Evil Twin:

What am I over here? A fuckin’ Jello puddin’ pop?

Look at your parents. At their friends. Pick just about any adult at random, and chances are they had a rough time of it, at one time or another, at the hands of other people. Whether it was chronic or occasional, the trauma varies only by degrees and permanence.

This “lash out blindly and punish others” mentality is the ultimate act of cowardice. You avoid the source and target unsuspecting people at random to alleviate your misery, on the theory that misery loves company? What a cop.

You victimize others to alleviate your feelings of victimization. But you still have the victim’s mentality.

It wallows in self-pity, fear, despair.

You’re still too focused on the external; change for the better starts within, with your own perception of self.

No one has absolute control of every aspect of their life; any one of us could get killed at any moment by random, unforseeable factors, from Acts of God to criminal activity to declining health. Ultimate control and “absolute free will” are an illusion.

Learning to distinguish between the things you can control and the things you can’t is the beginning of wisdom, and the first step on the road to being your own person, instead of some thug’s chew-toy.

Your tormentors are people, with hopes, dreams and aspirations. Even if they only hope that they show up in your worst dreams, and only aspire to kick your ass tomorrow when they see you next.

Getting them off of your back, out of your mind and life isn’t easy. You are their object, and you accomodate them by submitting to their perception of you.

To change their perception of you, you have to first change your perception of yourself.

Everyone is a victim of some set of circumstances at one point or another in their life; sometimes traumatically so.
But life moves forward, and the decision to either grow beyond the circumstances or remain a prisoner to fear, pain and grief is an individual one.

Drugs, therapy, counseling; none of these are good in and of themselves. I’m no expert, but it seems to me that, if you aren’t ready for help, if you aren’t willing to work towards a solution to better yourself and situation, then these may actually be doing you more harm than good, in that they now become another justification to yourself to define your weakness, your status as a victim. They treat the symptoms, but aren’t a cure.

They aren’t going to help you if you can’t begin to help yourself.

ok…i was gonna try to say something extremely witty and all for my first ever post but seeing everything that’s going on in here…all the namecalling…all the fighting over points…
::walks over to JET and gives him a hug:: i think you needed that more than anyone else in here

[popeye]Fascinatin’[/popeye]

Seems bullying wasn’t the problem after all, Jeremy. At least in the recent Santana case.

This CNN Article indicates that Mr. Williams was “angry at the school” for locking the doors when he came to school late.

What do you think? Justifiable homicide?

jarbaby

One of the patterns of behaviour I’ve seen in everyday social environments is that “hurt” children will often use toys in an instinctive attempt to undo the harm incurred.

There generally comes a point, however, when the accumulative effects of the “social pressures” they are subjected to causes them to give up on themselves.

Often it is a seemingly trivial event that proves to be “the straw that breaks the camel’s back” and I would suggest this is what happened to Mr Williams.

Jorolat

Hmm, okay. So Andy shows up late one day and finds the doors locked, which turns him from a rational individual to a raving homicidal lunatic in a millisecond. Okay, that makes sense. Heck, I’ve chased people off the freeway because one taillight was slightly brighter than the other. It’s all good. :rolleyes:

But seriously, I’ll back up jorolat in saying that it was possibly the trigger, but the root causes go far deeper than that, be it mental illness or bullying.

J.E.T.

Man, if only I had posted earlier, I would’ve had the honor of discovering the source of J.E.T.'s screen name. The song “Jeremy” by PJ was the first thing to pop into my mind as I was reading the thread.

No comments on the OP or any other following discussion.

I agree totally. Can you imagine being an employee in a workplace in which you were subjected to the same things schoolkids cop every single day? We’re adults, and we’d have a problem dealing with that; I think the kids do remarkably well.

I was teased at school - I just told myself that I’d only have to stick it out for a couple more years, and I’d be in the real world where people don’t act that way. I suspected being an adult would be way cool, and I was right. The worst thing about being twelve years old is that your peers are freakin’ twelve year-olds! Being a kid sucks.

I watched a program concerning serial killers last night on one of the educational channels, and was not paying that much attention until, while interviewing this killer named Rifkin (killed 16 women over a period of several years) they mentioned he was bullied in school. In the process of trying to understand why killers kill, they found out that he was dyslexic as a kid, plus awkward and had a long history of being picked on and left out of games by other children.

It increased when he went to school, where he developed into a shy guy with poor social skills, but who kept trying to blend in. His parents mentioned that the school abuse ranged from being shoved in the hallways, to fights, to ridicule to being ostracized.

After graduation, he started killing prostitutes. Subsequent tests discovered that he was not stupid, with an IQ of 120. Other tests displayed some brain dysfunction in the areas of the brain that mainly control impulses, such as the impulse to punch some stranger. Instead of providing the normal ‘don’t do it’ command, which regular people have, it allowed them through. So, he had no compunction not to kill if he felt he could get away with it.

They did not explain whether or not this was a birth defect or if it could have been caused over years of prolonged childhood stress from being picked on.

Further discussion pointed out that a great many psychiatrists and researchers have been investigation the peer abuse factors in schools – bullies/bullied – and are convinced that many killers are victims of this action. They find it hard to prove, though. One guy, using hamsters, has done psychological experiments that seem to indicate that lengthy abuse to a child by peer groups can produce killers.

I tend to agree.

I also feel that intense stress, fear, and social pressures can cause brain damage and mental illness. The latter, we already know can happen, but the former is still being looked at. For ages, peer abuse has been accepted in schools as a fact of life, such conflicts being considered necessary as learning experiences for kids, but now it appears that it is going too far.

I was looking at the playgrounds of a couple of local schools and noted the absence of a couple of pieces of equipment that I knew as a child. The iron bar climbing cube, or Jungle Gym, was gone, so was the Monkey Bars, or that ladder thing you hang under and use your arms to cross. Kids also used to climb on top of it.

These were removed because they’re dangerous. Kids can injure themselves falling through the Jungle Gym and toppling off of the Monkey Bars.

So, the schools are safety conscious enough to remove potentially dangerous equipment, but neglect the common display of bullying. Both are equally hazardous.

Now, in my opinion, not every picked on kid will grow up to be a killer or psychopath or heavily dysfunctional, but the damage can be displayed in other ways. An adult is more protected, knowing that anyone who punches, touches, harasses or threatens him or her can be sued. I have no doubt that many a previously bullied kid has risen high in business, and developed many of the ruthless, selfish business actions we see today.

It’s similar to a kid playing a game, where he takes out his hostilities on the toy soldiers or computer generated enemies. As a businessman, he can decide to increase interest rates because he quietly resents ‘them’ who borrow great amounts of money. He might fire people with little compunction, reacting more or less callously because of the callous treatment he was exposed to in school. He might order hostile take overs of businesses he really doesn’t need, putting hundreds out of work, because he is acting on an over blown need to convince himself that he is not the wimp they made him out to be in school.

He might decide to increase the cost of pharmaceuticals his company makes, less for actual greed, but more for lack of empathy for the general public, generated from no one coming to help him when he was being picked on in school.

Schools are great for that. Regular kids will stand by and watch a kid get picked on, disapproving but doing nothing. That can generate a perception in the victim of all people being scum, which might show up later in life.

That doctor who specializes in specific medicine, could be a kid victim, and his high rates are a subconscious punishment applied to the general public, who stood by all those years ago and watched his humiliation and terror without lifting a hand.

There are many, many ways peer group abuse can show up in later life after school.

I wish someone would start another thread so I don’t have to keep excusing myself for commenting in a thread that I took myself out of but

I quit being picked on when I was in school when I quit being such an asshole.

If your attitude is a sneer you are just asking for trouble.

Noting the attitude of many on this board I think that may just be the reason many of you were picked on.

justwannano, I think I’m going to take offense to your statement.

Like you, I stopped getting picked on when I learned to bust heads real well, but, unlike you, I never forgot how I felt when the victim. I also kept my noncombatant friends and know how they felt.

I certainly did not like it, found no reason for it to have happened, did not like the lack of response by teachers, staff, onlookers and the general acceptance of the situation.

I’m smart enough to have looked into these things over the years, interested enough to make comparisons and to discuss conclusions on and off with people in various areas of Sociology and Psychology as well as knowing several police officers who gave me tons of information. They also allowed me to ride with them from time to time and I was able to visit the jail now and then, though not just for the reasons of this post.

Some things, you just never forget. I don’t forget the fear I felt, just like I don’t forget that great, automatic response to being bullied the last time when I ‘snapped’ and attacked my tormentor with magnificent results. That felt so good, that sometimes I think I’d like to do it again.

I recall the surprised and respectful looks from the usual watchers, the shock and fear in the tormentor’s face when I went berserk, the surprise the coach displayed when he had to pull me off of the kid and the great feeling of accomplishment afterwards.

I recall though the days, weeks and seemingly ageless periods of stomach twisting, knotting fear, the hot flush of humiliation, the ice cold feeling of panic, the dread of setting foot on school grounds, the slinking around, trying to find safe spots to wait for the bell, and the look, sound and even smell of the kids who threatened me.

So, I understand well where these folks are coming from. You think everyone can just magically change into combatants? You think people don’t remember cruelties against them by kids 40 years later?

These folks are not interested in the reasons why the bullies were bullies, not interested in any brutal family lives these little monsters had, just what actions they did to them.

BTW, I was not an asshole in school. I was not sarcastic nor one to keep going back trying to get in with the cliques. I figured that if people did not like me, then I’d leave them alone and I had my own little group to hang with. My friends were the same way.

Yet, we all got picked on.

I used to sit down at a table for lunch in the cafeteria and some dork across from me, with his adoring chick, would start making sarcastic comments at me to impress her and his snickering friends. Say anything back even remotely smart and said dork would puff up and offer to beat my ass.

That all changed after I tried to turn that one kid into a smear on the locker room floor, but I never forgot it.

I still haven’t. There are still people from my graduating class that I dislike and I graduated in 1970. Some I would love to take a baseball bat to even now, though they’ve probably changed since then. One is a minister, but I still don’t like him.

So, if you don’t like the thread, then leave it.

Me? I like it. I’m impressed with the discussion, which did not degrade into a name calling mess, which the title indicated that it might. I’m impressed with the reasoning and thoughts displayed her, which have both confirmed my private theories and opened up a few more areas of speculation.

At least this thread, being so lengthy, has a purpose, in comparison to some of the long, space consuming, frivolous ones I’ve come across here, apparently designed to boost post counts.

Are you sure you quit?

I was sexually molested by a gang of neighborhood bullies when I was four, because my parents thought I was safe at the playground across the street. In grade school I was teased and laughed at because I was skinny and wore thick glasses, and in junior high I got pushed around in gym class by the stronger girls. I was picked on in high school, and I did not sneer at others. This is what happened to me, and many of my friends and acquaintances had similar experiences.

It could be that some people were bullied because of bad attitudes. I wouldn’t say that for the majority of the people I knew. Your statement seems indicative of a “blame the victim” type of mentality that absolves the victimizers.

I must say that I do not agree in any way. Killing is wrong, no matter what the circumstances are. I believe that the people who commit these crimes are truely good people down inside, but they have just lost sight of the “path” and simply need a little bit of guidance. There’s my 2 sense :smiley:

Spider Woman
Quote
I was sexually molested by a gang of neighborhood bullies when I was four, because my parents thought I was safe at the playground across the street.

You have reason to feel picked on and I’m surprised you are not hating “everybody” for this. It is terrible.

But most I’ve been reading about, their own words, have not been treated this way. They just feel sorry for themselves. Until They take control of their life, don’t let it get to you , They are doomed to life as a loser.

Growing up means learning a lot of lessons about life. What I’m reading here is just one of them.

Collounsbury above has just shown that he can beat up on someone that does not have the ability to defend himself very well. I don’t have a college degree.I do not have the English background or experience to argue. I shot off my mouth just to get a reaction.

“Oh I feel so sorry for myself. Why do you big Literary bullys pick on me all the time.”

Pardon Me

It was Spidera48

I’m convinced of this after reading this page that details the symptoms of PTSD, especially those whose symptoms are so severe, they contemplate suicide. I’m going to list certain of them and see if you agree with me that victims of bullies in general (and JET in particular) don’t share most of them:

[ul]
[li]Problems with memory. (Not having trouble remembering, but having trouble forgetting.)[/li][li]Persistent anxiety.[/li][li]Fear that the traumatic situation will recur.[/li][li]Disturbed by the intrusiveness of violent impulses and thoughts.[/li][li]A feeling of being powerless over the traumatic event. Anger and frustration over being powerless.[/li][li]A feeling of being helpless about one’s current condition.[/li][li]Being dramatically and permanently changed by the experience.[/li][li]A sense of unfairness. Why did this happen to me?[/li][li]Holding oneself responsible for what happened. Feeling guilty.[/li][li]An inability to experience the joys of life.[/li][li]Feelings of being alienated from the other people and society in general. (In the case of bully victims, this is more of a cause than a symptom (effect). We were bullied because we were singled out to be ostracized and alienated. But then you start to feel that way; it’s like a feedback loop.)[/li][li]A lack of caring attachments. A sense of a lack of purpose and meaning.[/li][li]One Viet Nam veteran with PTSD said, “I don’t have any friends and I am pretty particular about who I want as a friend.”[/li][li]PTSD can be aggravated if the victim is stigmatized by society. Bully victims are thought of as weird, weak, geeky, nerds, cowards, freaks and/or gay.[/li][li]A deep distrust of co-workers, employers and authorities.[/li][li]Left with unexpressed rage against those who were indifferent to their situation and who failed to help them (Remember JET’s rants against “innocent bystanders”?)[/li][li]In personal relationships there are problems of dependency and trust. A fear of being abandoned, betrayed, let down. A belief that people will be hurtful if given a chance. Feelings of self-hatred and humiliation for being needy, weak and vulnerable. Alternating between isolation and anxious clinging.[/li][li]Trauma often causes the victim to view the world as malevolent, rather than benign.[/li][li]No sense of having a future, or, the belief that one’s future will be very limited.[/li][li]Feel that they belong more to the dead than to the living.[/li][li]Loss of self-confidence, and loss of feelings of mastery and competence.[/li][li]A resistance to efforts to change a maladaptive world view that results from the trauma.[/li][li]A mistrust of counselors’ ability to listen.[/li][li]People who suffered traumatic experiences as children, teenagers or young adults may simultaneously become prematurely aged and developmentally arrested. A part of them “feels old”. Another part feels stuck at the age they were when the trauma occurred.[/li][li]PTSD can be worse if the sufferer experiences the trauma as an individual rather than as a member of a group of people who are suffering the same situation… (Suicidal people) see their conditions as being completely unique -“terminal uniqueness.” they have no sense of identification with others.[/li][li]The severity of PTSD symptoms tends to increase with the severity and duration of the trauma. (How about years and years of being bullied in school?)[/ul]So my conclusion is that a person who has been bullied to the point that they have many, if not all of these symptoms, has PTSD and is also possibly suicidal.[/li]
I see a lot of these symptoms in myself.

First, sorry you had that traumatic experience Spyder, and glad you rectified it. But, I was always spouting off smartass stuff to bullies and when they offered to beat my ass, I always busted out laughing. It always struck me as being hilarious that some guy wanted to punch me because I was eating at ‘his’ table. I mean, good lord, how silly can you get! I never got hit, maybe because I was never afraid of it (I’m thinking bullies feed on fear more than anything else). Of course, maybe I was just incredibly lucky too but I can honestly never remember being afraid in school. I guess I prove the saying that ‘God smiles on fools’, eh? :wink:
Gotta remember to graft that self-preservation gene into my kids…

There’s no excuse for mass murder.

But there’s also no excuse for bullying.

And there’s no excuse for ignoring or shrugging off bullying or turning your back on the victims.

I posted the following in another thread. I think it’s relevant.

This is from an article titled Clique…Clique…Bang! by Dan Savage (of the column Savage Love). It was on page 18 of the May 14, 1999 issue of the Chicago READER. I wish I could quote the whole thing. And for the record, what he says about his HS experience also applies to mine.

Savage also quotes the alleged suicide note of Eric Harris, printed only in the Rocky Mountain News. Although police later said it was not authentic, the News said they got it from a police source. The note may not be authentic, but the feelings definitely are.

From this AP article about the re-opening of Columbine: http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/1999/08/17/columbine0817_01.html

Trevor doesn’t get it. Anyone who doesn’t is simply increasing the likelihood that it will occur again and again and again.