Also from the article linked in Post #56:
If true (and you’ve done a piss poor job so far arguing your points), so what? Why is this inherently other people’s problem?
This doesn’t tell us about inborn/genetic/evolutionary preferences. Culture and media in most of the world has had a Euro-centric standard of beauty for many decades, if not longer.
And?
I mean, you linked to a femcel community. I clicked on your link. Know what it says there?
That’s what it says there. So what the fuck are you talking about? Is this a thread about how incels aren’t dangerous selfish scumbags and are actually making a lot of sense, or is it a thread about something else? You said people are “biased” against incels. I have demonstrated why. What does the fact that there’s some other subcommunity that also knows that incels are dangerous selfish scumbags do to promote your position that incels aren’t dangerous selfish scumbags?
From the analysis so far, the link jumps between mundane statements of fact and ridiculous, counterfactual supposition, with no differentiation between the two, as in post #38. Sounds like crap science – people taking mundane scientific facts and extrapolating these into utter bullshit.
I’ll just start out by saying that this is pure speculation, because I sure as fuck am not going to go digging around in incel forum to find a so-called “femcel” and then try and read enough of their posts to do an accurate psychological profile on them.
But, just speculating, a few possibilities come to mind.
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They’re fake. GIRLs or just made up as a way for Incels to have something to point to and say “So what about the “femcels” then?”
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They’ve flipped the belief system. As best I can tell from what I’ve heard, the core Incel belief system is “[Other gender] is divided between shallow brainless robots who only sex with the cream of the crop, and hideous scum that’s not worth my time. [My gender] has a bunch of better-looking people than me and I’m jealous of them. My only chance of success would be to physically transform myself into something perfect (and I might try to do so) - or alternatively since I can’t succeed, it would also be awesome if all these other people who I’ve decided are excluding me would just die.”
As a basic belief system, there’s nothing specific about the genders that makes it so the genders couldn’t be flipped. Which would make “femcels” just a bunch of bitter sexless women who are sliding in next to the bitter sexless men and joining in the lament. Each of them refuses to date The Ugly, and each of them considers themselves The Ugly, so the two populations could plausibly exist alongside each other, each turning up their nose at the other. Both sides could plausibly admire Elliot Rodger, becuase he wanted to kill both genders - Incels believe the pretty people of both genders are against them.
Presuming, again, that “Femcels” exist at all.
ETA: hmm, looks like you actually posted a link to a femcel forum in the time since I started responding. Looks like your link doesn’t help your position much, either.
You misrepresented this study. You have to read more than the headline. They asked 50 white people what hue of skin they found most healthy, which was white skin with a slight yellowish tinge. That in no way equates to your assertion that “white/Caucasian skin is generally considered more attractive.”
I didn’t go to that incel site, but I imagine they did much the same thing by either misunderstanding a study or by figuring no one would check.
Thanks. I didn’t really come with any point to argue except that it does appear there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going.
Why should anyone care about anything that happens in our society? Maybe because we’re all living in it? Let’s say hypothetically that inceldom is a state associated with mass murder. Then shouldn’t we be concerned if the stats show more and more men are becoming involuntarily celibate? Or worry about how we’re going to address that as a society?
I notice Japan has managed to attain massive celibacy levels without much social discord. I am not sure the West will be able to do this. I would guess Japan managed to do this because they are more stoic or withdrawn people culturally by nature. Whereas in the West we have a culture of worshiping sex. I once read that sex has replaced God in the West and I think that’s probably true for a lot of people.
So female incels aren’t incels? This is getting ridiculous. This is what I mean by not liking culture wars. It’s always just a never ending rabbit hole of names and labels that mean virtually nothing because people dissect them into oblivion. It’s like music genres when someone says “I like posthardcore shoegaze.” Sorry at that point you lost me.
Just to recap: you linked to a bunch of people who say incels are dangerous people, which is a true statement. I don’t give a fuck about femcels one way or the other. The definitional omphaloskepsis, as a result, would seem to very much be a personal problem for you to resolve, as the person who literally created an account to support your thematic presentation here about how ‘we’ need a plan for the future now that incels have cracked the code.
Again: what’s your point? Culture wars? Names and labels? What? I’m talking about the people you brought up. What are you talking about?
It’s not a big mystery – high sex drive + no sexual partner + loneliness = extreme bitterness and anger. I remember this bitterness and anger – my sophomore year in college, I had very little romantic success and dipped my toes into this sort of these feelings, though this was long before incels were a group that talked on the internet (this was in the 90s). I remember feeling hopeless, angry, and bitter, and often those feelings were directed at women.
But it was bullshit. I wasn’t owed anything, and I wasn’t being a nice, decent, and respectful person. I might have thought I was, but I wasn’t, really. I wasn’t treating women and girls like people with their own thoughts and desires. Once I started to do this – truly, not in a fake way that’s meant to hide objectifying intentions – I got into a relationship. And it didn’t take long to realize that there actually are plenty of women and girls who would love to date someone who was truly decent and respectful.
I was an overweight, pimple-faced teenager who looked 16 when I was 20… but once I started to pair actual respect and decency with interesting conversation, I started having romantic success. Today’s incels are those that never figured that out, and still don’t actually have respect for women, and still feel that anger and bitterness. Why would a woman want to go out with such a person?
Bullshit concern trolling.
You are already starting from the position that a lack of sex must lead people to do terrible things in society.
Well, there’s already a lot of evidence, historical and current, that this isn’t the case.
If there is a conclusion to be drawn from available evidence, it’s that there’s a group of people out there using a misleading name for themselves and casting blame everywhere else but the one place that matters.
It does no good to use flawed assumptions to solve real problems.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Instead, start with the bunch of bitter, sociopathic complainers. As already explained, many already have access to sex. But it doesn’t match their own imagined automatic entitlement to women they consider conventionally beautiful. Sex dolls aren’t going to fix that. Instead, they’ll make up some excuse about how it’s not the same thing or not an adequate substitute.
Start with your garbage assumptions about the problem and work up from there instead of drawing garbage conclusions.
I actually think that Japan has proven you can have massive levels of celibacy without problems. According to the link there “42% of men and 44% of women 18-35 years old and unmarried in Japan are now virgins”.
So I concede I didn’t think about in my post above where I listed three possible outcomes, but the fourth possible outcome is we change our culture so that we can be like Japan.
Japan has managed this rise in celibacy without too many problems. I don’t know if there have been any incel related problems over there but I don’t think so. I think they just have the hikikimori who are men who have withdrawn completely from society, but they have done it peacefully without any associated hate or outbursts. They are suffering from a dying birth rate but that is a quiet problem.
I presume this is due to cultural differences but I don’t know. I don’t know why celibacy is such a seemingly different experience for Japanese vs. Western men. Or maybe we’re just not hearing about the problems they’re having over there?
There’s more a large volume of evidence that Incels are fucking up their science and none of it says what they claim it does, but I will concede that physically attractive people have something of an advantage in the dating game, and an even bigger advantage in the “I want to have casual sex and then immediately discard the woman and move on to the next one” game.
Japan’s advantage probably comes from the fact that involuntary celibacy isn’t actually the problem, it’s Incels that are the problem. For example, I am involuntarily celibate - given my druthers I’d be married to the woman I love(d), but she differed with me on religion and it didn’t work out. I’m not an Incel though - that’s a specific hate group of which I’m not a member.
All things considered, though I do get a little sad now and then (and though I do choke the chicken now and then), I still consider myself a pretty laid back guy and think the country would still do pretty okay if 50% of the population were me. I don’t have the bitter jealous hatred that Incels teach each other is justified and should be acted on.
Another assertion on which one is advised not to wager anything of significant value.
In one of the first articles when Googling femcels, is that many of them are guys pretending to be girls. But even if that weren’t the case, good on femcels for not settling for incels.
Only when incels (and femcels from what I’ve read) look at themselves, at their personalities and personal hygiene, will they ever have a hope of attracting a woman. While they continue to blame women for not being attracted to them, it will only get worse. This incel world isn’t only bad for women, it’s bad for the men who refuse to face reality, too.
No, there isn’t.
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“There’s a large amount of evidence” doesn’t mean jack shit if the evidence is crap or is being distorted. People claim there’s a large amount of evidence that the Earth is flat, or that we never landed on the moon. They’re full of shit.
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Society doesn’t have any duty to get you laid.
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As I pointed out from the survey, the #1 thing women were looking for was KINDNESS. Incels aren’t exactly brimming with that and as Sir Andy of the Eyes points out, a lot of us start out as oversexed, angry kids who don’t know how to get laid and eventually grow out of it. How? By NOT being anger and blame driven assholes who drive people away from us.
Well I think what you’re saying is “violent and hateful incels are the problem”, because:
- Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label “incel” and mostly posted on bodybuilding.com so he couldn’t have been part of an “incel” hate group if one didn’t yet exist.
- In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren’t bitter or hateful at all.
Again, there also does exist communities of female incels. I posted an example of one above who just seemed like a normal sad lonely girl. So saying incel = hateful misogynist as an automatic assignment does not make sense.
And I’m still very unclear on what points he think they are trying to make.