Like I said, I was going to wait until it was clear whether the majority wanted full disclosure to publish my PM. And since it’s been guessed anyhow:
So… you’re saying you cannot be Night-killed by Scum? Why exactly would it be bad to include that in your initial claim? Do you think that there is another third party player with a Night kill ability who might target you? Seems to me, it would have been a great thing to claim right away. Of course there’s no way to confirm that role at all. Sounds kind of fishy to me (pun intended).
Unvote Spawn
Vote DiggitCamara
**And then again, if Diggit is telling the truth, Scum would want to bandwagon him immediately. **
I must say that this seems like an unlikely power. I thought that a Scotsman was immune from only the first nightkill. Diggit’s role seems to be that he is immune from all night kills. It just seems way too unbalanced to be true.
**unvote: Natlaw
vote: DiggitCamara **
Good point.
We need to look at a few things. I don’t think I have the best lens to look at these things.
-
What does a starting balanced game state look like, for a bullet proof role? How does our game play with “balance” in general?
-
If Diggit is telling the truth, what happens if Scum try ti Night Kill him? What interaction would the Mod have to have on the scum board? Would this get the scum talking in public [this thread] about a third party?
-
The language of the PM. I frankly bought into Kelly’s so I again am not the best one to do this. Are we sure that he is bulletproof to NK, or, as I read the role, is he bullet proof to all attacks? That is, if we were to vote him, would he somehow survive? [Is there precedent for a player that can not be Lynched AND can not be Night Killable?]
– What do we make of the “Oblivious” language? Is there some drawback here that Diggit is under?
4.Can we afford to simply not vote Diggit today? Do we have enough of a case elsewhere? Related to this might be if we are at LyLo or not.
**5. Diggit, Do you hate Shoes? **
Because I wanted scum to waste a Nightkill on me. It’s the only use for my power, for Christ’s sake! Do you honestly think they’ll do that now?
But hey! No problem! If you lyse me right now they won’t even have to try!
@Meeko: No posting restrictions here.
I thought a possible Miller type role (weaker than a vanilla) might have fitted balance wise or weak power with significant draw back. The bullet-proof claimed isn’t really that.
Why are you keeping your Rysto vote? Do you want a double player lynch?
@DiggitCamara: nothing else to bring to your defense? Or a better case?
I don’t think you responded before to why you voted fluiddruid (for fueling a sach/Story town/town fight) without mentioning what you thought of Storyteller’s claim and then the next Summer you are very confident it is not town. Why didn’t you mention that Summer Two?
Why not keep your power hidden (thus useful) and try to get a scum lynched?
On the one hand, we were collectivelly inching to the conclusion that there didn’t seem to be much room for more power roles. There’s nothing to stop us being wrong, of course, but if Diggit is a town Scotsman that may have implications for the set-up.
On the second hand, I can’t decide if this is a strong or weak Scotsman role. Permament protection seems quite strong. However, the traditional Scotsman knows who an attacker is, which Diggit claims not to. So if true, he can make the scum waste a nightkill, but that’s all. Still pretty powerful, but not as much as the one-two punch of no NK plus ID’d scum.
On the hour hand, it’s a very good role for scum to claim, especially now that our Vig is dead. (I’m not sure if story’s “eating” of his targets would have circumvented Diggit’s claimed immunity to “outcompeting” but we’ll never know now.) As things stand, there’s no way to test the claim.
On the underhand, if Diggit does have this power I don’t think he’s used it in a very pro-town way. Diggit’s playstyle meant that he never became a high-priority target for scum. The more people said that they had no read on Diggit, the less likely scum became to kill him and solve town’s problem for them. With the reveal, his role - if true - is effectively useless. If your power is to nullify a NK, then you need to do your damnedest to attract that NK, and I see no evidence that Diggit has done that.
So, I don’t find this claim all that convincing. On the other hand, I’m not voting for him because of his claim either:
Alka went out of his way, even when he knew he was going to die, to attack Diggit. He could hardly expect that after he flipped, we’d decide it was a case worth following up.
I see what Natlaw’s saying re. Diggit’s fluid vote (that for the purposes of the vote he assumed story was town, then turned round and accused story of being SK). But beyond that, looking again at his case against story, it seems bizarre - he said himself that he wasn’t suspcious of the player, but of the role. It’s a very odd basis for a vote, especially from someone with a power role who should know that the roles in this game are unusual. It smacks of wanting to vote for story, and making a case up to match. Given that TexCat was also pressuring story at this point, I think this might be an attempt to push a bandwagon.
Finally, I really don’t like his overreliance on his roleclaim under pressure. Firstly, there wasn’t that much pressure. Secondly, he’s not tried to defend the actual cases against him - just produced the roleclaim like a get out of jail free card. I think the reliance on roleclaims when faced with lynch is a scum tell - they know the accusations against them are true, so they don’t try to refute them directly.
Well, I didn’t respond to the fluiddruid vote because I thought it was rather obvious: At the time I made that vote I didn’t think storyteller was a SK.
Also: the argument I was making was kinda right after all, though I chose the wrong target. It was Alka who at the time did what I had accused fluiddruid of doing.
For what it’s worth (and, historically, it’s not been worth a damn): right now, I’d say that both sachertorte and TexCat are scum.
sachertorte (in my mind) has been picking fights over small details and sticking like a pitbull to them, refusing to accept any argument at all. Odd about is not only the style (which managed to irritate even storyteller extremely) but also the fact that though he is strongly convinced about his subjects, he’s a late voter. It screams scum to me.
TexCat as well seems to be an extremely late voter, but he takes no firm stances and keeps out of the limelight. He has been only on the lysing wagon only twice, and both times he’s done his lysing as a low risk taker (few arguments, non controversial and when the deed already had been decided on, with or without his participation).
I think there was enough pressure to make my roleclaim, but YMMV. But, again: when you’re right you’re right. I did use my roleclaim kinda like you’re describing it, and that was, frankly, wrong.
The problem, of course, is that I was not going to defend myself against sacher’s attacks, because they reminded me far too strongly of his attacks against storyteller during the first 3 Days (the repetition of this pattern, by the way, has convinced me he’s scum). If I had engaged him on the matter, this Day would have drowned out anything else and, as history shows, it seems to be a pretty good camouflage for sachertorte. “The best defense is attacking”
And because of that I was kind of blinded as to the merits of other accusations. And I’m sorry I haven’t defended myself properly against some of them.
I’ve never been very good figuring out game balance so I tend to take roles as they’re claimed and try and compare them to our other knowledge. To that extent I buy Diggit’s claim. It fits that he would be immune to being outcompeted and looking at Story and Red’s role the color seems to fit.
My problem has to do with his style of play. If this role is immune to Night kill then he would have been the perfect town leader on Day1. Starting the game off with a claim would have forced the scum to try and kill him or at least give them some WIFOM and then he could have tried to lead us since all he would have to worry about is the lynch.
I’m not sure what ot make of it not happening. My initial take is that Diggit is just a low quantity poster who doesn’t like to mix it up and prefers to watch from the sidelines for scummy behavior and that isn’t the proper way to play this role but I don’t think it’s scummy. Of course it is another perfect scum claim just like Story’s in that there is no reason for him to die at Night since the scum can’t kill him, or won’t if he’s scum, and the town will be reluctant to kill a power role. Of course Story’s claim was legit.
In the end I think I buy Diggit’s claim and I’m willing to remove him from the clean noser’s pool that I’ve been looking in. Which is a good thing because I haven’t made much progress but since we’re getting down to the end of the Day and I need to vote. i’m going to go back over Sach, he was pinging me at the beginning of the game and now he’s pinging some others so it’s worth looking if I came off of him too soon.
So DiggitCamara’s claim is pretty much what I was expecting. More on that later.
I’m not sure why the conclusion was that there were no more power roles. We’ve concluded that there is no Detective (or at least I have) but I wasn’t sure if there was a protective role or something else. In fact, the lack of a Detective kind of nudges us towards there needing to be something else.
I’d say weak scotsman. Mainly because he is not immune to lynch. It’s a difficult role to play. In my opinion (which is only an opinion) the way to play the role is to pretend to be vanilla to the grave. The roleclaim doesn’t do Town much good. Or at least one wouldn’t think so. Basically he is saying he will never be killed by scum. Unfortunately the only other players with that characteristic are scum.
I agree. Diggit’s claim does have some incompatibilities with the existence of storyteller’s claim. If I had DiggitCamara’s role, I would have at the very least have been asking Chronos what the result of storyteller attempting to eat him would be.
DiggitCamara, did you ask Chronos what the deal was with a possible non-scum killer?
I agree. This role is design to attempt to get scum to kill him. He has done nothing to achieve this goal. Heck, I’m not immune to nightkill and I tried to get myself killed.
I agree. It was a sort of lazy play. But I fall on the side of Townies are lazy, scum are less so. But it really could go either way on that point.
I reject the accusation that I’m a ‘late voter.’ I’ve been trying to get a vote in by Tuesday at the latest. This Day I pushed it to Wednesday, but I explicitly addressed this on Tuesday Evening. I explicitly stated that I would vote for either Rysto or DiggitCamara. Frankly, I could have taken the lazy route and voted both, but I don’t like that, so I didn’t.
Why is engaging others bad? If no one engages anyone else, what do you expect to discuss? What you call a ‘fight’ I call a discussion. Are you still irritated that I was grilling you? Don’t you realize that in grilling you I was coming to the conclusion that I think you are Town? If I didn’t grill you, how was I to make an assessment of your alignment? Would you rather we just lynch you to find out?
Gah!
I agree with this assessment.
Early roleclaims tend to (but do not prove) come from Townies.
No the best defense is to do nothing. I’ve been engaging a lot of people. So many, that I’m sure a whole bunch are itching to kill me. But you know what? I don’t care. Because engaging others is the only way to generate discussion and evaluate the game. Lynch me if you want, but to lynch me for “engaging” others is just plain dumb.
I think that there’s a strong possibility we’ve got 3 remaining scum. If I have a strong suspicion on two players then I think it is a good idea to double player lynch and leave the Spawn alive. The best way to use the Spawn to Town advantage is to leave one alive while these is one Scum remaining. The chance of that Spawn thwarting the Scum’s choice of nightkill is high. I would assume the Scum will be targeting Masons now and if the Spawn can deflect that kill onto a vanilla townie, that would help the Town tremendously.
Well, again we have just a plain disagreement. The thing you have been doing I don’t call a “discussion” for a simple reason: You don’t actually accept anything your counterpart is saying. Ever.
Now: I don’t know if that’s your usual style of play (or even to talk to other people) but you’ve been consistently doing that:
A says something.
You disagree (sometimes on a major, sometimes on a minor point)
A makes a counterpoint
You dismiss the counterpoint entirely and repeat/elaborate a bit on your original point
Not only that but you keep doing that, enticing votes against A without voting yourself! (Just look at toDay. Or at your discussion with storyteller).
That’s what’s looking mighty scummy to me.
Diggit’s Claim:
It’s a very convenient claim, and that makes me worry. It’s untestable. It kind of is the perfect claim for scum to make. Though to that extent, it does kind of hang a ‘lynch me’ sign on himself. If DiggitCamara were scum, is this the kind of claim he would make? What is the expected reaction of Town to such a claim?
I think the reaction so far is very much inline with what I would expect and what I expect scum would expect. That is, people (me too) are jumping on Diggit’s play choices as well as the ‘convenience’ factor. That’s not a great role claim for scum.
Furthermore, can we really believe that the entire contingent of town power roles was 4 masons and a handicapped vig? Proper assessment of power would require knowing what scum have, but I look at 4 masons and a handicapped vig and I need to yawn. I’ve stated in the past that I like the idea of an all vanilla game, but the truth is they can get boring. Seriously, a roleclaim very much spices things up. And well, mason role-claims (Monkgate being the only exception, which only happened because scum were silly) aren’t exactly riveting fodder. From a game play standpoint, I certainly hope we have more than that.
From a game balance point of view, I’ve already expressed my shock that there is no detective and very possibly no doctor. Quite frankly, the game should be over already. KellyCriterion should have claimed cleanly and he would not have been countered. His lack of death would have been plausible from the presumption of a hidden Doc. Done. Game over.
Balance-wise Town should have had something.
Whether or not that something is DiggitCamara remains to be seen. But as I see it right now, I expect there to be something not-vanilla out there. At this point, if someone can claim a power that makes DiggitCamara’s role less likely to exist. I’m all ears. I think we are at the point of mass claim anyway, the main counterargument to one is the power of a hidden doctor, but at some point we have to abandon that. I think we all just kind of got lulled into the idea that everyone remaining was vanilla and didn’t bother to push for the mass claim.
This got long and ramble-ly. I think it is overall better for the game than not, especially given how light I have been in posts lately.
I think there is a mixed bag left, to answer this question, but I will throw it up on the off chance.
WAAAAAY back in my Mafia history, we had Allwalker that IIRC was bulletproof. Or sinfection proof. Some “-proof”.
Being further lost back then than I am now, I Was nothing short of pissed that we didn’t have that intel out and ““Working”” for town from square one. Crimson Glyph was my first game. Allwalker and I … The stuff with Ed and I is Child’s play compared to how deep I got into it with Allwalker. I May never understand Allwalker and his logic, but, I think there is something there, for someone else to listen to. Who would appreciate it. ---- There are reasons for Bulletproof to remain Silent. I am not gonna pass judgement on past games. But, I am willing to bet that Allwalker had more experience than I did, going into Glyph.
**
I wonder what the best TOWN play is for a bulletproof. If we had a bullet proof claim on day 1, there is no guarantee that it would play out the way others have stated.** I think it would be more helpful to Scum if Bulletproofs claim on day 1. They would know it to be true immediately, would probably start a band wagon on the basis that color couldn’t support a bullet-proof, or that it would be a great role for scum to make up. Remember that Day is historically bad for Town. There is relatively NO information, and next to anything that looks like a reason to lynch, becomes a reason on day 1.
Or, Bulletproof could remain silent. Much like a Doctor who could self-protect, will self-protect on night 1. If the prevailing thought is “Day 1 goes to Meeko or Peeker, no need to stick my neck out here on this one.” then there would be no immediate need to claim.
One play neuters a Bulletproof more than the neutered Masons in this game. The other has a matured flavor like [heh] Wine.
We can talk about what we should have done untill next year. I would love nothing more than to re-do everything I have done in this, and the smash brothers game. [It would seem I am destined for only a taste of my best play.]
What we are left with, is what we need to do Tonight, and indeed, Today. [IRL]
**
Are we at Ly/Lo? **
If we are not, the long and the short of it is, we simply do not vote Diggit today.
The Short being that it is too much work, and a fool’s errand to argue a claim that can not be proven, and will not be confirmed by scum. In short, we don’t need to pick it up at all, Diggit can get a pass, regardless of alignment.
The long, is that we argue it, and Scum, which I would assume would argue on the same level [Yes, less players, but there is more motivation to argue than town.] to Lynch Diggit today. Which, they would do if Diggit is Town, They would do TODAY if Diggit’s claim is true. Scum doesn’t know power, but at this point a ““real”” power would put you at the top of the scum watch list.
(By ““Real”” power I simply mean that [frankly] Masons came out of the gate short changed compared to recent memory. – Masons hence would not be a ““real”” power this time. No teeth.)
I think we should give Diggit a pass. I would like to think his claim was true, and indeed that is the side I sit on. However, even if he is lying, we will have more information next summer.
I Could be wrong. I could be Right.
Wrong means that we let scum live one more day [at least]. Hopefully we are not at Ly/Lo
Right means that I have hopefully done my part to get a scum lynch today. Is there Town counter part to Ly/Lo ? That moment, similar to Klondike, when you moved the last 10 onto your foundation, and you Know you have just won your solitaire hand, the rest is just formality? Is there such a moment in Mafia?
NETA:
UGH. :smack: :smack: :smack:
The question for the mixed bag was going to be: Can someone confirm What Allwalker had in Glyph? How it was played out? I don’t remember it as well as I should.
Sach:
Did you account for the fact that the Masons had no masonry? Certainly that makes them “less” than Mason in your balance calculus.