SDMB Diplomacy

The Game Room
61

[England]

@ France:

Looks like my determination to stick up for your rights has backfired badly on me; if you wanted a mutual Channel bounce, nice and safe and conservative, you only needed to ask. Then again you also moved towards Germany; sell me on what you are doing, because frankly I don’t get it. F Brest to Picardy would appear to accomplish all your aims without worrying a potential ally.

I’ll note a few things: Germany typically gets more out of a Sealion than France does, and you won’t be getting one of your two Iberian centers this year, and with 3 builds Germany can be a monster. As a matter of course, short of completely throwing the game (re: wevet’s thread on his game), I invariably will do more to “punish” someone who reneged on a clear agreement than I will vs. someone who never made such a deal with me in the first place. I am still willing to cooperate, but no BS this time.

@ Russia:

I am happy to see that you apparently are still willing to cooperate in Scandinavia. A successful Sealion against me does you no good at all, and you need that army in the south vs. the Turk, thus letting me into Norway should be a no-brainer for you.

@ Germany:

I regret antagonizing you (or engaging in communications that you interpreted as being against your interests), as your moves could easily be interpreted as anti-England. I am still willing to demilitarize both the Heligoland Bight and the Skaggerak, as I intimated in the Spring.

@ Italy & Austria:

A guarded set of moves for you both. The Turk’s attack should get your collective attentions; I’d make a quick deal to ensure one of you gets Greece, as he could easily bounce either of you of out it alone.

@ Turkey:

None of the above should be construed as criticism of your move-far from it. I like someone who goes right for the throat, intercourse the preliminaries. :salud:

[/England]

62

[Turkey]
Interesting. I wonder how the Englishman thinks I can keep Austria out of Greece unless Italy is willing to forfeit a build this year. :dubious: Just perfidious Albion trying to mischief-make, I suppose.
[/Turkey]

63

[E]

Yeah, bad habit of mine. :slight_smile:

64

[ITALY]

Austria: Well, a Turkish fleet in the Black Sea in S01 would indicate a Turkey and Russia who are very comfortable with one another. Or a really aggressive Turk. We shall have to go back and look through the press again, see if We missed something.

But more importantly, We would advise against a move toward Venice - best you can do there is a bounce, which simply delays both of us getting better position against our neighbors. We are proffering a chance for both of us to get a strong start and tackle Europe together - Austria to the east, and Italy to the west. However, if a bounce in Venice will somehow comfort you, so be it.

65

[France]

I apologize for my couriers lateness… but these shoes are *tres magnifique!]/i]

Now then…

@England

Ah, it appears I have erred. I, like all others, am prone to misjudge and mistake the intentions of others. And, I must admit, that this goes much differently than I expected. I will withdraw from the Channel, in good faith. Like yourself, I am willing to drown the world in blood to right a wrong, and have no wish to see that happen for frivolous or wrong reasons.
@Germany

Ah, some have taken my moves towards my French speaking brothers as aggression. Surely they can see the cables as well as anyone, can they not? And sure you would not renege on a close neighbor, and thus possibly start a conflict neither of us can hope to truly win?

@Italy

I agree, for our people to live in peace that Piedmont shall remain free of troops. This makes me so 'appee!

[/France]

Autumn is just more moves, right? Or is it builds/withdraws?

66

[E]

So…where do we go from here? I see that you and Germany almost certainly will come to blows over the Belgium question (if not Munich), while I have a fleet sitting very pretty in the North Sea with the potential to influence events, and an army which can cover my only vulnerable center. I don’t think you’ll be wanting to cede both Low Countries to the Kaiser (with the subsequent 3 new builds), seeing as you’ll only be getting one sure build yourself in Iberia this year. If you really want to ally, then let me know-but no more BS. :cool:

Yes I may be exposing my intentions here, but the alternative is a 2-way alliance against me, something I want to avoid at all costs. I think your only real alternative is for us to fight Germany, try to get you a 2nd build, then we can sweep into his heartland. Elsewise I think you’ll be destined to be the junior partner if you hook up with him, liable to being stabbed at some point once he balloons to 8+ centers.

67

[Turkey]
And again, I need to hear from my neighbours…
[/Turkey]

68

[France]

I am afraid, * mon ami*, that I will not know which way the wind blows until I see if the Kaiser intends to honor his agreement that Belgium is, and shall remain, part of France.

What say you, Germany?

[/France]

(still not sure if I’m issuing movments, or builds. Anyone? Bueller?)

69

[Germany]
Over the weekend I’ve patiently waited back to watch the outcome of the French situation, which perhaps should instead be dubbed the “French betrayal”, and to see how those actions effect the diplomacy of all.

I’m certainly disappointed in the tone of the discussions. It seems under these open press rules no one is willing to speak plainly. Every comment professes friendship and offers faux-apologies for the “misunderstandings”. This is ultimately pointless and fruitless. Eventually the players who speak honestly and clearly about their intentions will earn the credibility that alliances require, even if those words and actions are not directly cooperative or consenting.

So for now, I suppose all players will smile and promise friendship with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

Russia: Dear Comrade, I appreciate that your words have been true and honest for the time being. You can also see that I have been clear with my intentions towards you. It is troubling to see the aggressive moves of Turkey in the south against you and I trust you have the wherewithal to resist and repel the threat. I see your success in the south as crucial to German security, and you will require stability in the north. As such I concede Sweden to you and I trust you will use that build profitably in both our interests.

Austria: My good Germanic brothers, it appears that things are looking fruitful for you with conflict brewing in the West and Turkey and Russia at odds immediately. I trust this will serve to further our truce in the foothills of the Alps and that you will take a measured approach in dealing with the Balkans. Greed frequently opens up weaknesses even amongst those who we think we have under our foot.

Italy: It’s a very interesting opening set of moves for you. Italy’s break from the center of the board almost always goes through either France or Turkey and both nations have opened with hyper-aggressive actions. Actions which will at the very least cause defensive actions from their neighbors limiting early growth and at most lead to a immediate alliance between their traditional adversaries leading to a quick destruction. In either case there will be scraps for Italy’s taking. I look forward to seeing Italian fleets reaching far and wide.

Turkey: You have made a tactically strong opening towards Russia but have not supported this, or managed the resulting fallout with the other countries, with any press or negotiations to speak of. This is an interesting version of Diplomacy you play…

England and France: I address you both together because it seems silly for me to attempt any doubletalk or subtle persuasion in the open. First and foremost, the aggressive negotiations of the English and the aggressive orders of the French have my head on a swivel. War seems likely and a powerful Western Triple never had a chance it appears. This is a shame.

France, you have pressed a dagger to both the English and German ribs. You will force us both to make defensive moves and I suspect that this was your plan all along. Unless England and I can communicate an alliance it may prove to be a very savvy plan indeed.

England, you have made blatant overtures against me for reasons which I cannot understand. You have accused Russia of colluding in a Sealion opening and moved two fleets in his direction. You seem bound and determined to appease the French who has to date done nothing to deserve it. Your subtlety and tact leave much to be desired. I can only hope that such Chainsaw Diplomacy backfires on you or that you take a step back and realize that I have not been antagonistic to you in the least. My move were strictly cautious in response to the obvious English lust for French allegiance.

So I make this proposal in all faith. Between France and England, whichever one dedicates themselves to friendship with me will have my full cooperation in dispatching the other. I choose no preference, either alliance will be profitable for me and I am positioned prudently to move in either direction. I am likewise positioned well for either defense and possess a semblance of security to my rear. As such continued duplicity and uncoordinated moves will benefit no one. It is time to make your wishes open and known. Choose a side with me and the work can begin. Refuse to choose and you have made it clear to the rest of the board that a E-F alliance is in effect and a so-called Western Juggernaut

I offer these links for your perusal:
http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/resources/strategy/articles/english_hucknall.htm
http://www.diplom.org/~diparch/resources/strategy/articles/france_hucknall.htm

Now, I suggest we stop with the bullshit and clear things up the traditional way. You have my ear.

[/Germany]

70

Austria

I think my moves for the Fall are pretty obvious.

Vague threats about a Russia-Turkey alliance are about as scary as a baby mole, and are a little insulting to my intelligence. Even if you somehow manage to convince Russia to help you, you two are tactically screwed against me now. The only question at this point is what are you willing to give me to accept your carving up of Russia as a fait accompli.

Omniscient- I have potentially hostile countries on 3 sides, and I have no desire to make it 4. You shan’t see a piece of aggression from me. I trust you feel the same way, and will use your best judgement to aid me in anyway you can.

71

[Russia]
Turkey
I’ve gambled poorly upon the possibility of an alliance with you, and lost that round. I am not going to gamble again without some concrete evidence of goodwill on your part. I may be feeble-minded, but your entreaties are so incompatible with an army in Armenia that even I can see them for what they are. What would you do, march from Armenia all the way around to Bulgaria? I doubt it. I do think that eventually, Austria and Italy will be wary of a 5-unit Turkey and take action.

Germany
Your understanding of Russian interests in this difficult time will not be forgotten. Even were I not busy in other theatres, you would need fear no aggression from me.
Italy
I apologize - I misread your orders and believed you could convoy an army to Tunis rather than putting the fleet there. Forgive my groundless butting in to your business. For obvious reasons, Russia wishes you extreme success.
Austria
I must congratulate you on a successful Spring. Your armies will no doubt abound next year, and I cannot offer you any aggression (indeed, it should be noted that I took no aggressive move towards you in the spring either.) I wish you luck and urge you to defend your borders well against the Turk - it will be necessary.
England
I trust that you will have luck in western Europe. While perhaps not fortunate, the events of this spring have not brought us to the brink of war.
France
You will be able to move armies and fleets again this turn for Fall. Winter is the builds season. Good luck.

[/Russia]

72

[E]

First of all, I hereby request a 24 hour extension. The delay processing Tristan’s orders has put a time squeeze on any discussions. Cat, I hope you get this message before midnight.

Nor was it intended, as others have intimated. If I demilitarize the Channel, then the opening I used is de riguer for England. Now, if A Liverpool had gone to Edinburgh, then yeah you might rightly view that as a problem.

Well I’ve tried. Then again, you then go and say:

Can’t please anybody I guess. I attempt one very commonsensical (defensive) and straightforward negotiation, and another power reads much more into it than was intended. England’s first order of business is to ensure that no enemy fleets end up adjacent to his shores.

Both of these are falsehoods to one extent or another. You assume a Channel neutrality agreement between France and I precludes any sort of cooperation between ourselves. And as I just explained to Russia, mine is a very typical opening once I forswear the Channel. Second, I’ve said nothing untoward towards the Tsar and wish him well in his upcoming struggle against the Turk, and in fact we seem to have reached an agreement vis a vis Scandinavia. Now yes, I did inquire towards France if he wants to cooperate at all, despite his Channel move, but nothing has been forthcoming from him.

<Shrug> Can’t say I’m happy with France-he agreed to keep the Channel clear, and then immediately moves there anyway. Then again he moved against you as well.

Okay, forget any past acrimony, here’s this: Tristan hasn’t said anything substantive to me since the moves came in (and since I made an initial offer of possible cooperation), other than offer a weak apology. I am certainly not against a German/English alliance at all, nor have you really done anything to annoy me. You want Holland, natch, so the question becomes who gets Belgium. Frankly I am perfectly happy seeing it remain neutral, for the moment (which appears to be its likely status after the Fall).

What if I agree to let you get Belgium, but none of your upcoming builds are fleets (after this Winter, you may build at least one fleet-preferably just one, but we’ll worry about that later), nor do I build any armies for two years. That will ease my mind over a possible 6 unit Germany, you can use your newfound muscle to blitz right into Paris while I outflank him with my fleets. You also get Marseilles, while I get Brest and Iberia.

Good enough?

73

[France]

I find it fascinating how now England, after I state that I will remove my errant fleet from the Channel, and offer a heartfelt apology, is now saying he has heard “nothing substantive” from me.

This being said, I have stated all along that I believe, based on our first communications, that Germany agreed to let Belgium return to it’s rightful place as part of France.

And yet, here is England, offering to “let” Germany get Belgium, as long as he builds no fleets.

So here is this:

I am open to remaining friendly with England. We gain nothing by fighting, save a stronger Germany.

I am also willing to remain friendly with Germany, as England has so clearly made his interest in making us fight tells me mayhaps we shouldn’t.

So which shall it be, Germany? Do I move into Belgium, as agreed before, and then turn my eyes to the west (and, dare I say, North)? Or is it to be war between us, while England sits dreaming of reclaiming the ancestral lands of Brittany on the backs of German soldiers?

Because his plan, of splitting France between the two of you seems to leave you short. And I assure you, it will not be an easy fight, and you will do ALL the heavy lifting.

[/France]

74

[E]

Dude, you broke our agreement, for no reason other than to…well I don’t know frankly. You’ve yet to fully explain your rationale for your mini-stab to me, since you seemed quite agreeable to neutralizing the Channel during the Spring negotiations.

Me, I just want to not be the odd-person out, secure my shores from any threats, and then move on the nearest most appropriate target (what it’s all about). Germany, you would get 3 centers, me 3 (thus why I am offering Belgium to you), and it wouldn’t take long to get my fleets in position. The Western Alliance is by nature a very fragile beast, which is why I’m not considering it.

75

Due to request, I will be extending the deadline by a further day.

to

Deadline for Autumn 1901 is Wednesday 15th July 20:00 GMT.

Please ensure your orders are in by this point.

76

[Turkey]

Russia
Pardon me, great Tsar, but I am at a loss to understand you. It is true that our peacekeeping force in Armenia was sent there as a negotiating lever, given our understandable suspicions concerning your good intent, but its mission brief was by no means carved in stone and it could withdraw from the front lines as easily as it arrived there.

However, I do not believe your posturing and vague threats of retribution against peaceful Turkey from some uninvolved third parties are doing anything to calm the troubled waters between us. It is plain that in this regrettable conflict Turkish forces must be directed against yourself or our mutual neighbour the Archduke (who has done us no wrong), and from the outset it appears that you required us to adopt a blatant and unprovoked anti-Austrian stance and yet yourself offered us no assistance. What was your intention? That after much innocent Austrian and Turkish blood had been spilled in a Balkan stalemate, the claws of the Bear would begin tearing himself a share of both while we were helpless to prevent it? Nay, mighty Tsar, the Sublime Porte is not so easily duped - and we perceive that your other neighbours may also be disinclined to yoke themselves with an incompetent. Let history judge you for your mismanagement of your country’s affairs.

Austria-Hungary
Wise and beneficient Archduke of the Dual Monarchy, we observe from your forthright dealings with your Italian neighbour that you are not afraid to disrupt his internal communications to secure your own borders, and we applaud your ethics in forewarning him. Such a combination of sagacity and honour greatly inclines our heart towards you, and we urge you to consider for the longer term the advisability of amity between neighbours until it is clearly seen how the situation in the West resolves itself. It would profit neither of us to become embroiled in a needless power-struggle that would see French or German bayonets embedded in our backs - although, to be sure, such a fate would befall you sooner than me, simply by the dictates of geography. Neither of us should become the decadent West’s useful idiot, I hope you agree. Our ears are open to you and we have refurbished the guest suite especially for your ambassador.

Italy
We suggest you seriously consider the virtues of friendship with both ourselves and Austria-Hungary.

[/Turkey]

77

[Russia]
Turkey
I don’t know that the stream of insults really counts as “diplomacy.” Even when you’re at war with someone, sometimes it’s better to leave some possibility for future cooperation, since you don’t know what the future may hold.

Austria
I’m thinking of how we might cooperate in 1902, in ways beneficial to us both. In this case, anything that weakens the Turk is in Russian interests, while undoubtedly it would be beneficial to Austria to grow past the 5 centers you almost certainly will possess in winter. Let’s keep our options open and see what I may be able to do for you next year.
[/Russia]

78

[France]
It was a simple mistake. I have never played with open press. in the past every game I have ever played has had a channel bounce, even amongst allies, even after both happily agreeing with a tip of the tophat to leave the channel free.

I misjudged. That is all.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem intent on following up with Germany, who can’t possibly trust you after seeing how fast you were willing to toss me to the Reich.

I stand here, my hand outstretched and hoping to salvage what could be a VERY beneficial frendship for us both, but that is your decision to make.

I will be in Belgium this turn, barring a stab from Germany (which I frankly expect, as he hasn’t acknowledged our agreement since making it). He fears what we could do, were we allied. And well he should.

[/France]

79

[Turkey]
Russia
Wise and beneficient Tsar, we understood your previous comments to us to be of the nature of advice as to where both we and the steed whereon we arrived could take ourselves; and for all that, we have offered no insult, simply explained our suspicions of your motives and commented on your reluctance to show us reason to cooperate with you or to act in a manner that would further our interests had we done as you asked in Spring.

Should circumstances regrettably call for a stream of insults, we undertake to leave no room for doubt in that regard.
[/Turkey]

80

[E]

I dislike the Channel bounce because that means my fleet is worthless in the fall, suitable only for defense. Even if I suspected as much I probably would have done what I did anyway.

Germany has yet to respond to my out-in-the-open-and-on-the-table offer, going on 17 hours later now. If you really are on the up-and-up, then at this point I will be willing to throw my lot in with you, and support the fleet (I assume the fleet) into Belgium. Note that there are a series of guessing games revolving around the 3 open centers in question, and with open press we can’t coordinate on specific moves without him knowing-so I also have to guess at what you are doing. But Belgium is a mortal lock for you either way, if you are willing to play it safe. Also notice that my support could be cut.

Get back to me ASAP Tristan.