Assuming you’re not joking, he’s seen significant gains in all fantasy stats in TB.
We only start one QB, so I didn’t think simply adding the numbers together was the best way to judge it. That works better for clear starters Judging the trade only based on the QBs, I wouldn’t do it, but it’s not unfair.
I couldn’t find a DynastyPros.com (did you mean FantasyPros)? And Keep/Trade/Cut’s trade calculator grades Rodgers as a 5039, while Mac Jones is a 5009 and Watson a 4693.
In Dynasty I think the “how many you can start” angle falls apart. Every player is a lottery ticket when projecting out even 2 years.
I don’t know if those trade value numbers are “higher is better” or “lower is better” and I don’t know if they try to capture rankings or aggregate point totals or whatever. In any case, in all three of those examples Rodgers is between Watson and Jones. That; means by any of those metrics Rodgers is the 2nd best player in the trade…yet he went in a 2 for 1. The numbers and your conclusion feel a bit dissonant.
I call BS on this. I’m nearly certain I drafted Kittle in the second round of his sophomore season. I did. ME, after all you guys passed. He’s not having a good year, and SF seems going in the wrong direction. You can’t convince me that he’s going to be any more Antonio Gates (all timer) than Jordan Cameron (3 good years). Freiermouth is just a guy too. All these guys are essentially lottery tickets.
Really? Kittle and Freirmuth are both “just guys”? Just lottery tickets?
We are talking about George Brittle (always injured), a guy who is not going to start for most fantasy teams, even in 2 years (Mac Jones), and a guy who has a greater than zero chance of never playing again (Watson).
It may tilt slightly to Jules, but not egregious to the point of us even talking about voiding a trade.
What are we even doing here? We talkin’ about practice, man. Practice. We talkin’ about practice.
Agreed. Civility, boys. Sorry if I set off a firestorm, but we do hobbies to REDUCE stress, right?
I will repeat, I got the player I wanted. I don’t see any of the other seven players in this trade being for SURE better in the past or future as Rodgers is now. Even Brown, though it’s close. I think I get three years out of him, be it GB or anywhere. I can’t be expected to have a fantasy planning horizon beyond that (can any of you?).
If you guys need to make this a referendum on my intentions, I don’t care. I’m still a visitor here. But for the record, there was no malfeasance here, I wasn’t induced, coerced, etc. Though if Jules (or anyone) wants to award a good job to a clever young Engineer, well, ok.
Seriously though, guys, I invested what I felt was a considered effort to making a trade, in good faith, because I said I would. What else you want from me?
Again, it’s not just about the trade. As I said upthread, while I think Jules clearly fleeced Overly, I wouldn’t negate the trade IF Overly was going to continue to be in the league for the forseeable future.
But he’s not. He’s not going to be here to see the long term outcome of the trade. He won’t be here to gloat if it works out, and we won’t be able to lightheartedly mock him if it doesn’t (says the guy who traded Amari Cooper for Marlon Mack). He’s making a trade that gets him 8 weeks of rooting for Rodgers and Adams, but by my measure, costs him a ton of capital. Capital a new owner would definitely need.
Kittle was drafted in the 2nd round in HHM this year, 3 rounds earlier than Rodgers. I mean, let’s dial back the hyperbole here. He’s really fucking valuable in a league where TE differentiation only applies to like 4 guys. Were he healthy Kittle for Rodgers straight up would be a fair trade.
Concur. While I think this trade is a total shitshow, I don’t think it’s a result of some malfeasance. But the fact that one player has a foot out the door, and there’s some new owner to-be that has to live with this…we’ve got to take a close look at it. One player playing for right now (with a hometown bias to boot) while everyone else plays for today AND tomorrow creates a major imbalance.
The lesson here is to be a fucking predator with trade offers I guess. Find the guy who might be open to doing something wild and see what sticks. Jules seems to understand that better than anyone else.
But Kittle isn’t healthy, Jones is a game manager type, and Watson is a huge question mark. There’s a lot of what ifs here.
Why are we so worried about the guy who is going take over the team? This isn’t a money league with prizes. You can do worse than having Rodgers and Adams.
There’s no issue with voicing an opinion on the value and merits of a trade, who got fleeced etc. I have a big issue with even the suggestion of voiding a trade because people don’t like it, regardless if someone is quitting the league or not. It then opens up future trades to be voided, simply because one person fleeced another. Lopsided trades are going to happen. If you weren’t able to pull of a trade to “fleece” someone leaving the league, then that is on you.
For the very reason Overly is leaving: it’s not fun to have an uncompetitive team. Keeping owners in a dynasty league is hard enough. Finding new owners to take over struggling teams is even harder. Just look at the dregs we had to allow in the league this year. 
Kittle has a strained calf and has missed all of three weeks. Let’s not pretend he’s got a torn Achilles like some players. He’ll be back at 100% sometime well before the playoffs.
Jones is a rookie. He’s no more a “game manager” than he is an “elite passer” or a “franchise cornerstone”.
Watson when he last played was better than Rodgers was at the same age.
I’m fine with the argument that we shouldn’t be in the business of vetoing any trade. We can have that debate. But I’m not going to concede that this trade is anywhere close to balanced.
Ok let me clarify. I didn’t mean to convey, weeks ago, intent to quit. I was offering my appraisal that I was not competitive in this league and knew it was going to be a REALLY uphill battle for me to change that, and I didn’t know if I could. And that I felt I should give you guys time to line something up if you wanted to bounce me or similar.
That said, I did not apply short term thinking to the trade, it wasn’t a lark, it wasn’t impulsive. It might prove foolish but it was deliberate, and I did it expecting to need these guys again. I wanted to get more from Jules, but as I said, he knew his position was a lot stronger than mine. I didn’t have other trade partners, so I did what I did, again as outlined upthread. I think I fairly assessed every player in the trade, to my ability, and I was ok with the deal, because I GOT the PLAYER I WANTED, and homerism is a part of fantasy at every level.
I know you guys all fancy yourselves great scouts, and you’re all more saavy than me (at present) but my thinking usually boils down to none of us know shit beyond the next season or two. If it were mid-2007, and I were getting Braylon Edwards and not Bryan, I wouldn’t be getting “fleeced”, but by two years later it could have been a clear loss for me. The converse could just add easily happen to me. Who among you really knows Edwards or Freiermouth (how I’m spelling that from now on) enough to say they can’t be good, even real good? Every single player is NFL caliber. And every single one needs a good landing spot and some super fucking luck. I can deal with it. Again, there is not a single can’t-miss sure thing in this trade, except for Rodgers. I refused to trade Adams and Henderson for this exact reason (not that Henderson is that, but he’s by far my best outlook).
I guess while you guys have me ranting I’ll say I don’t understand the idea of trying to impose, or even expect, balance. It’s no more desirable or possible then it is in the NFL. Everybody wants to be the Pats. Every one of you wants to dominate your foes year after year. This would be fucking boring if it were balanced and everybody was 7-7 each year. I want to rip out souls and demoralize you with my blinding brilliance.
There’s no balance, on a trade level or on a season level. This pursuit is an economic model, someone necessarily wins or loses.
And ultimately, if Jules fleeced me, in hindsight, good for him. Be a shark. You guys had thirteen years to check him from being able to get in a position to get over on little old me.
No one is going to “bounce you”. Disappearing, not changing your lineup, or going incommunicado for a long time will get you bounced, but thinking you’re not up to snuff or that we’re some kind of football savants won’t. Nobody cares if you don’t think you’re good enough for a free league; we care that you pay attention, put out your best lineup, don’t tank or disappear, and don’t cheat or collude.
If you’re saying you’re willing to stay in the league, but you might take awhile to be competitive, great! Being good isn’t a requirement, but trying is. If you’re willing to stick it out, still want to play, won’t flee the league if things don’t go your way, and are willing to put up with my bullshit and some ribbing, you’re a fantastic addition. I totally did not take your earlier post that way, I thought you were saying you no longer wanted to be part of the league.
As to the rest, I’ll just re-post what I said earlier: “while I think Jules clearly fleeced Overly, I wouldn’t negate the trade if Overly was going to continue to be in the league for the forseeable future.” If you’re still in, great. You’ve clearly got enough interest to play, and I like your contributions. It doesn’t hurt that you seem to think we’re some kind of super-great fantasy players (ask Beef about my opinion of Josh Allen sometime for a good laugh). I can always use a good ego stroke.
I think your position on this is highly motivated by your own involvement in this trade. You’re being defensive because you are potentially being indirectly criticized, and you stand to gain from it. Your accusations of there being an agenda other than what people plainly state in this trade is misplaced and kind of insulting, it suggests you think you’re being persecuted for our advantage. Justin made a pretty bad trade with you recently, and people said it seemed like a bad trade and they didn’t get it, but no one was proposing that it’s problematic because you were at the receiving end. The problem with the trade is not that you’re receiving it, it is because it severely disadvantages the future owner of Overly’s team - and possibly impacts whether we can get a future owner for Overly’s team at all.
Like Hamlet, I interpreted Overly’s plans to leave as solid - he’ll play it out until the end of the year and expect us to find a replacement. And thus, building interest with personal fandom is of little value and whether that keeps him around indefinitely is irrelevant, if we correctly understand that he intends on leaving. If he plans to stick around and play out this trade, then sure, it’s a bad trade, but I have no problem allowing it.
The idea that we’re micromanaging him and that every single add or drop would be under scrutiny, or that now every trade anyone makes could be rejected if anyone likes it are both absurd hyperbole. It is only the intersection of two unique circumstances - an owner who is leaving a team to a future owner that we have yet to convince to take over the team, and an egregiously bad trade that there becomes concern. Overly has made smaller roster moves all season without a problem, and other people have made bad trades (Justin to you recently) without a problem.
Additionally, your assertion that he’s trying to make a run for it this year due to his week division doesn’t hold up. He’s trading away Antonio Brown who is having a very productive year for players who are not, including one who is on IR.
I think if you weren’t personally involved and on the defensive about this trade, you would immediately see the problems and agree with the concern. But since you are involved in it, you are acting as a lawyer would - making the best case for it even though you probably know that if you were uninvolved you would probably not feel that way.
This trade appears to be significantly depleting the few assets his team does have, for a relatively low return, but if he is indeed leaving in a few weeks, it’s the new owner who will have to pay the price for this by having even fewer assets to work with. Those of us who sees this as problematic (which, again, I think would include you if you weren’t involved) aren’t complaining because you’re gaining a lot by fleecing him, but that it will be much harder on the new owner to do anything with his team, or to even recruit a new owner at all.
Which is the part of the trade he’s winning?
He gets a running back with an achilles tear that no running back has ever come back from. It’s entirely possible he’ll be the first - he’s young enough and medicine advances - but it’s not a great bet. It’s also not like he’s Adrian Peterson or something and the team would be heavily invested in making sure he’s their star - he seemed pretty good but he was a second round pick, not someone with heavy investment.
He gets back a younger WR - which is great, he should get younger - but one who had under 200 yards as a rookie (usually a pretty bad indicator) and is on pace for more like 800 this year.
Where he wins is that he gets a QB that has high value this year, but is likely to have limited value in future years. In return, he gives up both of his young QBs that have potential. He’s not in position to compete this year and probably not next, which means that he’s making a move to get a QB that won’t be around when his team starts contending, and he got rid of the ones that would’ve been part of that.
Kittle is most likely worth, even at 28 and beat up, more than Freiermuth is likely to ever be worth. The Steelers have never supported a high end fantasy TE and Freiermuth seems like they type they usually like - good, versatile football players that aren’t very fantasy-useful.
It’s hard to look at this in a way where you can say what Overly wins by making this trade. There are some unlikely scenarios - like having the first RB ever to come back to being fantasy useful after an achilles tear - but it’s kind of a stretch.
I wish he’d have just posted in the thread that he’s interested in trading those players - I suspect he would’ve got better offers for them. I don’t understand his logic at all that your team is strong and therefore has few needs and therefore he’s at a disdavantage - it makes it sound like he was compelled to do a deal with you and had no choice but to lose that trade, but why even make a trade if you feel like you’re at a disadvantage?
To be clear, I don’t think anyone is calling your motivations into question. I appreciate having you in the league and if you’re interested in still managing your team, I’d like you to stay. I don’t think there was any sort of bad faith or malfeasance.
But this is sort of a special case that requires more scrutiny. Signing on to a dynasty league for years is a fairly big commitment in fantasy terms, and I don’t think we’ve ever had anyone take over a team as bare as yours would be after that trade. It would be both hard to convince someone that they had much to work with, and then for them to shape the team in their own image since they’d have fewer assets to manage.
It’s possible that some of us are wrong that this trade will work out badly for your team, but there are obviously a few of us that strongly predict so. But that cost, should you leave, will be paid by the new owner, and may even discourage there from even being a new owner, and that’s a difficult problem to deal with.
I can understand why you feel under attack - even if there’s no malfeasance (and I’m sure there is not), we’re all essentially saying “this is such a bad move that it will cause problems into the future” and that’s embarrassing for you - unless you prove us all wrong and it works out great. It’s not my intent to embarrass you, but only to look forward to how this is going to affect the process of recruiting a new owner, and that new owner trying to make the team his own.
I don’t generally like taking away things from people, for example, by making them cut players they would otherwise be entitled to keep. I am okay with the idea of giving bad teams more assets with which to improve, up to and possibly even including extra draft picks. I could envision a system like giving the top few drafters some extra picks scattered through the draft, and/or more FAAB dollars or something along those lines.
I don’t see this trade as particularly one sided given the question marks on some of the returning players. Just my gut reaction.