Yep, all sounds right!
Sounds like you’ll fit in perfectly. 
I’m hoping we don’t have to use “spoilers” when discussing ancient epics … but just in case, be warned.
I read the Iliad some time ago, in translation. One thing that struck me was how very unlikable all of the major characters are, with the exception of Hector.
For “heroes” they certainly do not come across as models to emulate.
What is there to respect in Achilles? He leaves the Greeks in the lurch because he’s busy sulking - over being deprived of his rightful spoil. He only comes back when Hector (the only admirable character) kills his buddy, thinking it was him - because the buddy was wearing his armour. Furious, he comes back and kills Hector, then proceeds to dishonour his corpse - even though Hector was only doing what everyone at the time agreed was honourable.
What is there to admire in this? I’m sure I missed some depths of meaning, character and tragedy.
Spoilers involved here!
Well, partly it’s that the ancient Greeks–and most everyone else–saw Achilles’ brand of heroism as the pinnacle of greatness and we don’t. But even so, yeah, he’s sulking; that’s his tragedy, that he lets his emotions take over and thus loses his best friend, a whole lot of his companions, and eventually brings on his own death. By the end of the story, almost everyone is dead except Odysseus and Menelaus/Helen–Agamemnon is killed when he gets home, Ajax kills himself because of Odysseus, and so on.
IMO Hector and his wife are the most admirable people, yes–they’re happily married and everything!–but even Hector has his problems. Like Troy itself, he gets involved in a war for a cause he knows is wrong, but he sticks with it because it’s his brother who started it. He yells at Paris a lot, but otherwise goes right on with this dumb war that gets them all killed. Everyone wants it to be over, but they don’t quit.
Finished book 3 last night.
Finished book 2 last night. Some of the relics/effects of the oral tradition hangover are delightful/tedious, but I’ll save those thoughts for the discussion.
Do I really need to post my name here…seeing as its right above this? Well, my major/minor in college were MIS/Music, so I can’t say I have an extensive background in literature which extended beyond high school. We studied The Odyssey in my freshman english class, and then I chose The Iliad (both were Fitzgerald translation) as my book report of the month. Two years later, my major project in my Latin 3 class was not only reading The Aeneid in its original language, but creating The FuSoYa translation into English…my teacher let me off the hook when I was halfway into the translation though.
I HATE poetry and fancy language usage, so I definitely do not want to go with Fitzgerald again. Which translation would you recommend for me…not cliff notes, but not something where I have to study every line to figure out what it means? I’m also going to have to stick a text file on my phone to read while at work, otherwise there is no way I’m keeping up.
You’re right, there’s a lot to dislike in all the Greek heroes, and even accounting for the different tastes of the ancient Greeks, they too would have recognized their flaws. But what about Achilles’ actions with Priam in book 24? Has his attitude changed as a result of what’s occurred previously?
I may be misinterpreting, but some posts above seem to imply this poem is about the entire Trojan War and includes later episodes (e.g. the Trojan Horse). It doesn’t; this is about one specific episode during the war. The situation is little changed from beginning to end–Troy is still under siege–and yet a change has taken place.
Yeah, but some of us haven’t read it yet and have no idea what all is encompassed-- slow down. We’ll get there. You guys reading it for the second/third time need to hold your horses for the rest of us. Save it for the big discussion!
I don’t think all of the characters are unlikeable. In fact, I find Achilles extremely sympathetic.
The key to the story, for me, is to really listen to what the characters themselves say about honour, glory (‘kleos’) and authority. I agree that those of us who know it well shouldn’t get ahead of ourselves, so I’ll just leave that there.
I’m actually thinking about using this thread as an excuse to re-read. I haven’t read it in English for about two years.
Well, I meant the entire long story when I mentioned it above, not just the Iliad episode. But I will try to rein myself in; sorry.
Hera and Athena want the Greeks to win, because they were snubbed by Paris when he chose Aphrodite as the fairest. And of course, Aphrodite wants the Trojans to win because Paris chose her.
But the gods also have other motives. Troy itself is sacred to Athena, the Parthenon keeps Troy safe. And lots of dieties have various offspring on various sides, every god tries to protect their spawn and punish anyone who hurts their offspring. And so lots of them have the equivalent of ADD, heeding the prayer of one hero to help their arrow speed true, yet heeding the prayer of another hero to protect them from the very arrow the god helped guide.
Do you mean the Palladium? And I don’t think I’ve ever heard that Troy was sacred to Athena.
This brings up another issue - the people who would have been hearing this, originally, knew the story they were hearing, as well as a large complex of surrounding stories - many of which we no longer have access to. It’s important to remember too that myth is/was extremely fluid, and there are tons of versions of all of the Greek myths. Just because a lot of the Greek myth books written today present a standard version, it doesn’t mean that that version is necessarily what the author of this poem or the audience would have had in mind.
So, I guess it’s good to know some of the possible context, but we should remember we really don’t know for sure what ‘comes before’ or ‘comes after’. The only thing we know for certain about ‘Homer’'s story is what ‘Homer’ says.
Yeah, Palladium, sorry.
The Palladium was an image of Pallas Athena, and it protected Troy. Diomedes and Odysseus had to steal it before the city could be sacked.
So we have an image sacred to Athena protecting Troy, yet Athena herself wishes Troy to be destroyed. Weird.
Quoth the lady who checked out my copy of Iliad (Fagles translation) at the library, “I’ve always intended to read that, but haven’t gotten around to it”.
Me:That’s pretty much why I’m reading it.
(I did not feel like explaining the influence of my invisible friends).
I read the Iliad in high school almost thirty years ago. I’ve never finished my degree, and have taken only a few college courses. I’m a bit intimidated by the level of education of the posters here but I think I’ll learn a lot, and I’ll try to keep my contributions coherent and my questions within reason. I’ve just always wanted to catch up on the things I’ve missed, such as reading the classics.
Some of these battle death scenes are Tarantinoesque in their lusciously gory detail: really vivid and detailed enough to be easy to imagine. Diomedes’ (son of Tydeus!) killing of Pandaros (shining son of Lykaon!) is absolutely hilarious (5. 290-294).
So how is everyone doing? I’ll admit - I haven’t been re-reading it as I planned. Maybe I’ll get a chance before the 10th, though.
I’m in Book 6 and taking it along on a trip I’m about to take. I’ll be away when the seminar starts, but I hope to be able to join in later that week.
I just want to be clear about something: we are doing the whole Iliad, starting on the 10th, right? Not just a part? (At St. John’s we broke it up into several different seminars.)
Keep in mind that the stories were originally recited aloud (from memory!) by a bard, who, depending on his skill, might very well have inspired real terror and horror in his audiences. Although it all seems rather stilted and distant to us now, I can pretty much guarantee you that most of it wasn’t seen as cartoonish for most readers in the first two millennia after it was written.
I urge you to imagine it as Kubrick might have made it, or Spielberg (a la Saving Private Ryan). Not Tarantino.
FYI, my freshman Greek tutor, a leading scholar of Ancient Greek, once recited the entire first book of the Iliad for us, in Greek, entirely from memory. Although most of us couldn’t follow much more than the occasional name or stock phrase (e.g., flowing-haired Achaians), it was a tremendously impressive experience.
I’m up to book 17. It’s really good, when it isn’t tedious. Book 2 reads like the biblical begats.
It does feel like something that was meant to be read out loud. Sometimes the phrasing makes more sense to me if I do.