Again I’m too lazy for a long setup. I have my own opinions, which are, of course, correct, passionately held, and bombastic, but I’ll wait to see if the thread has any wheels before I post them.
Tough choice, but while it’s a harder read, I ultimately find the Iliad to be more rewarding as well.
Favorite lines:
“Jove,” he cried, “grant that this my child may be even as myself, chief among the Trojans; let him be not less excellent in strength, and let him rule Ilius with his might. Then may one say of him as he comes from battle, ‘The son is far better than the father.’ May he bring back the blood-stained spoils of him whom he has laid low, and let his mother’s heart be glad.’” (Hector, holding his son)
and
“Come to me at once,” he cried, “worthless sons who do me shame; would that you had all been killed at the ships rather than Hector. Miserable man that I am, I have had the bravest sons in all Troy- noble Nestor, Troilus the dauntless charioteer, and Hector who was a god among men, so that one would have thought he was son to an immortal- yet there is not one of them left. Mars has slain them and those of whom I am ashamed are alone left me. Liars, and light of foot, heroes of the dance, robbers of lambs and kids from your own people, why do you not get a waggon ready for me at once, and put all these things upon it that I may set out on my way?” (Priam complaining to his remaining sons after Hector’s death)
[hijack]
There’s an old joke about a professor who spent 20 years in the library proving that the the Iliad was not written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name.
That might be trivial, but I think this is a more important question: Are scholars sure the Iliad and the Odyssey were written by the same person?
In the first place, the issue you bring up is not a hijack. I have no objection at all to this becoming a discussion about Homer’s identity as well as his work. Note how I phrased the question in the poll.
In the second place: Well, I’m 20 years past college classrooms, but my impression was that scholars are not in fact united in the opinion that the same author composed both works.
Most days I’d vote Odyssey, but it’s a tough choice between the Odyssey and Iliad. Another great line from the iliad, and one of the most chilling things i’ve ever read, the speech of Achilles as Lykaon begs for his life:
“Fool, do not offer ransom to me, and do not make speeches. Until Patroklos met his day of fate, even till then was it more pleasing to me to spare the Trojans, and many I took alive and sold overseas; but now there is not one that shall escape death, whoever before the walls of Ilios a god shall deliver into my hands—not one among all the Trojans, and least of all among the sons of Priam. No, friend, you too die—but why do you weep thus? Patroklos also died, who was better far than you. And do you not see what manner of man I am, how handsome and how tall? A good man was my father, and a goddess the mother that bore me; yet over me too hang death and mighty fate. There shall come a dawn or eve or midday, when my life too shall some man take in battle, whether he strikes me with cast of the spear or with an arrow from the string.”
Hands down, the Odyssey. Though I think your question can only be answered in the sense of “what work do you like the most and why?”, because no one nowadays can fully appreciate a text written in a language that only a tiny minority still reads and isn’t understood enterily even by them since we can’t immerse ourselves in its culture to grasp the context of the words and the meaning inbetween.
I’ve read the influential German translation by Johann Heinrich Voss in school and later Thassilo von Scheffer’s interesting, modern version but gave up on the original during the second or third book at the university.
If I compare them and add, e.g., Pope’s English translation into the mix, the differences are substantial and reach deep into the meaning of Homer’s epic poem.
Traduttore, traditore.
I’ve been thinking of starting a thread on whether one can correctly say one loves (or hates) a work of literature one knows only in translation.
The Odyssey is over-rated. Sure, he spends ten years getting home, but eight of those are spent as the willing love-slave of hot magical women. It kind of undercuts the message.
Of course, this is assuming translations of equal quality. The first version of The Odyssey I read I loved, and the first version of The Iliad I read I hated, but mostly because it was a terrible, terrible translation.
I’m a big Iliad fan.
By the by, has anyone ever read Homer’s Secret Iliad, by Florence and Kenneth Wood? It suggests that the Iliad (and the Odyssey too, but they never wrote the sequel as far as I can tell) not only tells a rousing story, but also represents the entirety of Greek astronomical knowledge, with warriors as constellations, wounds as the brightest stars in those constellations, it goes on. Interesting theory, but I’ve never heard anything about that theory aside from that.
I’ve never read the Hymns, but I prefer the Illiad to the Odyssey.
I’d recommend Achilles in Vietnam by Shay, a VA doctor, who points out parrallels between the experience of Achilles and those of soldiers suffering from PTSD.
I’ve only read the Iliad and the Odyssey (yes, translated), and, of the two, I preferred the Odyssey. I find the episodic nature more thrilling for something so long. Plus, I don’t understand why war would be enjoyable in the first place.
Hmmmm. I’ve only read excerpts. The Iliad had more oomph, while the Odyssey had better fantasy. I voted for the last option, b/c that best suited my whims. It’s all Ananke’s fault anyway.
I think The Iliad is in general better, more dramatic, and more important. But, given the choice, I’d rather read The Odyssey. And I have. more times than I can recall, first in Robert Fitzgerald’s translation, the in Fagles’. I have them on audiotape and CD now, and have listened to them countless times in my car, in addition to the many readings I’ve done in print.
I’ve read the other Homerica, as well (I have the Loeb Classics edition), and
a.) it’s nowhere near as interesting in itself (although a good source for information)
b.) It’s pretty clearly by a different author(s). If tradition didn’t ascribe it to Homer, nobody would have thought it was his
c.) None of the others is remotely close in size or scope.
Homer occupies a special place at the wellspring of Greek literature. Only Hesiod is about as old. despite its age, the work is amazingly detailed and complete. Because it is so old, it’s a bit like an “Old Testament” of Greek literature and religion, with later writers constantly quoting him and using him as an Ultimate Authority. Yet, surprisingly, there are places where others disagree with him – sometimes even everyone. To him, Oedipus’ mother is Epicasta – everyone else calls her Iocasta. Not everyone shares his love of Odysseus. And there are surprising gaps in his knowledge. The story of Perseus seems to be pretty old – but Homer doesn’t seem to know it. He knows that Danae was seduced by Zeus, but never names her child. He knows of the Gorgon as the Head of a Monster in the Underworld, and that it adorns shields (most notably that of Agamemnon, although in art of the period it’s on that of Achilles), but doesn’t seem to know anything else from the story. We’re frequently left wondering if Homer is repeating and recasting familiar old stories, or making stuff up on his own.
Wow. That is some cold, cold stuff. I’d known Achilles was kind of a jerk - but still. Wow.
***Kind *of a jerk?
He’s a freaking super-villain.
A role which does not require jerkishness. With a bit of effort, which I am afraid I’m too lazy to expend at the moment, I could easily come up with a list of supervillains who’d consider Achilles’ taunt to be gauche, uneccessary, and entirely beneath them.
Let’s see…
Destro, definitely. Also Storm Shadow.
Saruman, as long as he was winning.
Lex Luthor, depending on the version.
Victor von Doom, depending on the writer.
The Mayor of Sunnydale.
Agamemnon is the super-villian. Achilles is the dimwitted henchman.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Props to it–there isn’t a straight message–what does home mean, after all, to a vagabond adventurer? If adventuring and war and being tricky and cunning are admirable, why are feminine virtue and home and hospitality paramount values at other times, in other circumstances? How will Odyssey’s son, wimp that he is, know what path to take?
And Achilles? Pouting slacker boy anti-hero with a speech like that? More props.
First, you ask me to cull my book collection down to a dozen volumes. (Do not think for a moment I had forgotten!) Now, you’re asking me to make this Sophie’s Choice between The Illiad and The Odyssey.
What next - do I love my daughter or my son more? Which testicle would I rather keep?
I shall continue to think of you, Skald, as some sort of literary Bond villain until it is proved otherwise…