Which brings us full circle to Dio’s comment, which claimed he was a playmaker and a monster YAC receiver. The first person to bring up ‘elite receiver’ was Hamlet, who then proceeded to call ‘Strawmanning’ on everybody else. :rolleyes:
While that’s true, Dio basically argued with Hamlet that Harvin is eleite after Hamlet brought the term up.
…And I just wanted to talk about the upcoming Vikings game. 
“Elite” wasn’t my word. I said “Playmaker,” “YAC monster,” and “dangerous.”
Well, he’s only scored 6 receiving touchdowns, so playmaker is out. He has a mediocre YAC average, so that’s out.
Dangerous, maybe… but doesn’t everyone in Minnesota have a gun?
How odd that you wouldn’t even provide the actual quote while making this crap up. How utterly surprised I am.
Just shocked.
Stunned I dare say. Stunned.
So stunned, I’m having trouble typing the quote out, FOR THE FOURTH TIME.
Shall I bold it for you?
Supersize it?
"Percy Harvin, who is already as dangerous a playmaker and YAC monster as there is among NFL receivers.
Funny how you left out any mention that Dio compared Percy to the best of the best of NFL receivers. Not really funny HA HA, but funny odd. Nope no mention of the AS … AS THERE IS AMONG NFL RECEIVERS. Gosh, why ever would you leave that off? Heck, some people, certainly not me mind you, but some people might conclude that you were trying to mislead people into believing that Dio only said Harvin was dangerous, a playmaker, and a YAC monster. I’m sure you wouldnt stoop to that, though. I am the first person to use the term elite, because it seemed to fit the idea that “AS … AS THERE IS AMONG NFL RECEIVERS.”
Glad we could clear that up. Again. For the fourth time.
And color me shocked Dio would do the exact same thing. I may have to get to a hospital with all these shocking revelations.
Could we get back to the football talk?
Sure.
I really like how the Vikings built their current team, with a very nice balance of free agent acquesitions and good drafting. Steve Hutchinson really helped the O Line, Jared Allen is a fantastic pass rusher, and the Williams wall makes things a ton easier for the rest of the defense. They built at the key positions… except for QB. And they took care of that one this year. Apparently. They’re a damn good team. I’m not a fan of them suing to keep the cheaters playing for the year, though. But they’re a damn good team.
Give me a break. They drank some kind of over the counter nutritional supplement that had an unlisted ingredient. You can say they’re still responsible, but that doesn’t make them cheaters. The banned substance isn’t even a performance enhancing drug. And if the Vikings are able to sue and keep them playing for so long, it’s because the NFL is in legally murky waters trying to penalize them. Note that they have not contested other violations by their players.
But far be it from me to keep someone from taking a few cheap shots.
As for the Vikings, well, golly, just read any major sports news. Their season is over. They already lost by 40 points to the Cowboys. Sigh. Swoon. Oh, the Cowboys. :bats eyelashes:
Gotta focus on the negatives, eh? Hamlet said some really nice things about our team before the singular “cheap shot.”
So? It was still a cheap shot calling them “cheaters.” I suspect he knows the facts of the case.
They took a masking agent in violation of the NFL rules. They were told BEFORE THEY TOOK IT, that they shouldn’t and that the StarCaps they supposedly took mistakenly would violate the NFL policy. And they took it anyway. In violation of the rules. Make all the excuses you want, hell I believe Jim Miller when he said he didn’t knowingly violate the policy. But he took the suspension and didn’t sue to keep playing for the year while the courts sort it out. Too bad the Williams are above the law.
And yes, cheaters is a bit of hyperbole. If you like, call them “rulebreakers”, if you believe them.
I hadn’t heard this part of it. Everything I’ve read implied they didn’t know the banned substance was in the “supplement.”
The NFL’s written statement about the appeals and rulings:
"The players specifically violated a longstanding provision of the policy relating to the use of diuretics and water pills, which serve as masking agents for steroids and are potentially dangerous to the health of players.
"The policy states that the use of so-called ‘blocking’ or ‘masking’ agents, including diuretics and water pills, is prohibited and that a positive test will not be excused because it results from the use of a dietary supplement that unknowingly contained a banned substance. Supplements are not regulated or monitored by the government and players have been warned about the risks of supplement use.
" ‘You and you alone are responsible for what goes into your body,’ the policy has always stated. ‘Claiming that you used only legally available nutritional supplements will not help you in an appeal… Even if they are bought over-the-counter from a known establishment, there is currently no way to be sure that they contain the ingredients listed on the packaging or have not been tainted with prohibited substances… If you take these products, you do so AT YOUR OWN RISK! For your own health and success in the league, we strongly encourage you to avoid the use of supplements altogether, or at the very least to be extremely careful about what you choose to take.’
"The appeals process in this matter included close to 30 hours of hearings. NFL Executive Vice President of Labor and League Counsel Jeff Pash heard and decided all of the appeals except for Bryan Pittman’s. The appeals officer for Pittman was former NFL Executive Vice President and League Counsel Jay Moyer. Following are key excerpts from Jeff Pash’s decision upholding the suspensions:
- Bumetanide, a potent diuretic, has long been a prohibited substance under the policy and is similarly banned by other drug-testing programs. Diuretics are banned for two reasons–first, because they can be used to mask the use of performance-enhancing drugs; and second, because they can pose a threat to player health and safety.
*The policy contains numerous specific warnings about dietary supplements. NFL players received separate advisories regarding supplements… These included two memos from Dr. John Lombardo (the program’s independent administrator) entitled ‘Weight Reduction Products,’ which were sent to players in July of 2007, and again in July of 2008.
*In addition, two notifications specifically mentioning Star Caps were sent on December 19, 2006. One was sent to the presidents, general managers, and head athletic trainers of all NFL clubs. The second was sent to Stacy Robinson, the NFLPA executive who oversees the Steroid Policy on behalf of the union. The letter to Robinson states that ‘Balanced Health Products, which distributes Star Caps, has been added to the list of prohibited dietary supplement companies. Please distribute this information to the agents and players through your normal channels.’ In response, Robinson had Balanced Health Products added to the list of banned companies that is maintained on the NFLPA’s website.
*(For those players with weight clause bonus provisions in their contracts,) the player specifically agreed not to engage in any ‘last-minute weight reduction techniques,’ which included ‘use of diuretics.’
*There is no question that the policy embodies a collectively bargained rule of strict liability - a rule that players alone are responsible for what is in their bodies; that inadvertent or unknowing use of a prohibited substance will not excuse a positive test; and that supplements are used at a player’s own risk.
*With respect to the question of whether a specific warning should have been given regarding Star Caps, the policy does not set forth an obligation to issue specific warnings about specific products and no testimony suggests that the NFL and NFLPA have ever contemplated imposing such a requirement on Dr. Lombardo, who oversees the development of education materials on steroids. In keeping with that responsibility, the NFL, NFLPA, and Dr. Lombardo have emphasized the need for extreme caution in the use of any supplement, including weight reduction products, have established a Hotline for players to call for information regarding supplements, have established a Supplement Certification program with EAS to provide players with supplements that are free of banned substances, and have, in conjunction with reinforcing the strict liability rule, repeatedly warned players about the dangers of unregulated and inaccurately labeled dietary supplements. In the past, players have been suspended for using dietary supplements that contained a banned substance.
*The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) does not issue specific warnings about specific supplements, nor are such warnings issued in other drug testing programs."
So they did what anyone would do: read the label carefully. The label lied. Considering what happened to Korey Stringer, I’d just avoid weight loss supplements entirely, but it’s clear that the Williams are the victims here and the NFL is being disingenuous. Yes, you are responsible for what you put in your body, but where does that make them cheaters? Somebody slipped them a mickey, period. It happens that the NFL is violating Minnesota state law by trying to enforce the policy. People – even football players – have rights.
Their teams, trainers, and union boss on steroids that StarCaps was prohibited by their policy. Yet they took it anyway. I’m finding it hard to find sympathy for them when they were informed prior to taking the stuff that if they took the stuff, they would be suspended.
They agreed with the policy. They knew the rules. They saw players suspended for supposedly accidentally taking banned substances. They were told SPECIFICALLY that what they were taking was banned. Even if you accept their story that it was just an accident rather than an attempt to cover something up, they fucked up. Should the label had said it contained a banned substance. Yes. But they were already told it was a banned nutritional supplement.
PLUS, and this is the most important thing: they were Vikings.
You know, I actually kinda liked you. You seemed rational, willing to discuss things normally, and willing to use facts and stats to make your points.
Then you pull shit like that. I explain my viewpoint, I give the NFL statement on the issue. I use facts to back up my arguments. We don’t have to agree, but at least we could have a civil conversation without resorting to braindead ad hominums and inane accusations to each other.
Apparently, I overestimated you. Pity.
Well, it seemed like a cheap shot to me. And I don’t think you’re being completely honest with the facts. For example “they were told about StarCaps” equates to a memo they got two years before the infraction, and one that nobody has been able to verify they actually received (the NFL was unable to prove this, IIRC. Just that they sent it out for dissemination). Players get all kinds of crap and can’t track it all. Point being that most players simply know the actual ingredients and watch for them on labels. “We told you two years ago in a badly mimeographed 87 page memo that was one of a thousand memos you got that season” is not really as cut and dried a warning as you want to believe.
I think it only takes a little bit of imagination to see how it would feel to try to comply with policy and be told “we told you! we told you! still your fault!”
And I doubt you would have called Packers in the same situation “cheaters.”