Seeking Relationship Advice (financial shit, of course) LONG

In My Humble Opinion
1

Six year mark coming up in October on this two-person, not-a-marriage, unintentionally but functionally monogamous, mostly good and cozy companionable yummy relationship.

She’s on disability (MS), did well at socking away some resources beforehand, has a coop (or has the mortgage; it isnt’ paid for), income currently sucks. I did the math on what she’s got and when it becomes avaiable to her (some is socked away in interest-bearing accounts that can’t be withdrawn from without heavy penalty) and she’s spending almost right at the maximum amount to exhaust her short-term resources before the next batch becomes available. She’d have to choose between living it up a bit at that point or setting a bit aside each year for older age, but essentially if she spends down at the right rate she’s got enough, plus her job disability (eventually expires) and social security (permanent), to see her through to her early hundreds.

I’m a person with a much shorter relevant work history, rising salary, no resource socked away as of yet to speak of (working on it but still in chickenfeed zone for now), rent a room sharing an inexpensive apartment in a far less desirable part of the city, most of my monthly budget goes to bills, 401k (which I never even see), another investment (which I don’t always make), food I eat on my own, and my contrib on food/other stuff we consume jointly when we’re together, plus my two main vices: computergeek equipment (which in part is investment in my career, I’m a database geek) and goin’ foodin’, i.e., checking out new restaurants solo (she doesn’t like to experiment, I do).

She wants to renovate her apartment. I have in the past either bought furniture as gifts or split the cost of new furniture, and this would be a set of larger ventures into apartment-improvement.

We spend nearly all of our “together time” in her place, not mine. Hers is nice, mine is far less so. In my previous place of residence, mine was also out of the way for her to get to, whereas I commuted into the city and was therefore local to her pad, so we just fell into the pattern of me spending time at her place for our days together and going along to my own place for our days apart. For this reason we have a joint fund for food and other shared expenses that we both contribute to but which is nearly all expended on stuff consumed or deployed at her apartment. This fund only covers consumables and joint expenses like Broadway shows etc.

She has a wealthy and powerful mentor, the boss she worked for before she went out on disability, a demagogue she tamed and caused over time to respect the work she did, and he has softened in his old age and worries about the person he views as She Who was his Personal Admin Assistant (and Person Who could Face him Down) and he worries about her and wants to help. I believe his intentions are entirely good and above-board for her and, to the extent that he takes notice, for us as a couple. But I think he believes I am mistreating her financially, and she has a tendency to believe of herself that she does leave herself open to being made a fool of, being taken advantage of, not sticking up for herself as she should. So as a consequence of recent discussions betweenst the two of them:

• She wants to leave me the coop apartment if she should die before I do, plus whatever remains in an account currently midway toward six figures (as she ages, it will empty); and he wants to buy out her share and then simply hold it, in essence making it unncessary for her to pay her mortgage, and his children would inherit the property and/or sell it for market value; because she wants me to be able to inherit the apt and the bank accounts if she predeceases me, he has agreed that were that to come about I would only pay normal market payments and would not have to pay off the exponentially bloated unpaid mortgage + interest that had accrued during that time. Kind of her, accomodating of him, not my idea.

• Because I spend more than 50% of my total time (and all of our “together time”) with her, he has pointed out to her and she agrees that I should be paying something towards her monthly maintenance fee. Actually, since the stuff discussed in the previous paragraph is his favor to her and not really his favor to me and her (reasonable, that; he knows her, not me), he feels I should pay towards maintenance and mortgage. She’s not so sure about that. It makes sense to me to an extent, I reap the benefits of hanging out with her in better surroundings than my own digs, which would strike me as unsufficient if I were living in them all the time, meaning that you could say I am saved from paying a higher rent on my own pad because I’m so often at hers for which I do not pay. On the other hand, it’s her choice, not mine, that she should have me over to her place and she never come to mine; nor is it any of my doings that cause her to be living more upscale than I am. I don’t know what’s fair here, so that’s part of what I’m asking.

• Because she would be taking measures to provide for me in the event that she precedeases me, he thinks, and now apparently she does too, that I should buy up life insurance on myself with her as the beneficiary, which would balance against her leaving me the apartment. More than contributing to the apt maintenance, this bugs me. It was her idea, her initiative, to leave me the apartment, something (that at the time she first spoke of it, prior to her discussion with her mentor-boss) she either would or would not fully own, and I would take over the mortgage payments. Or sell off the % she’d paid for if I preferred, I guess. Any way you look at it, something she had already made the commitment to acquire, for her own reasons. Something she already owned (to some extent). I have nothing similar that I already have title to that I could leave to her were I to die before she did, and purchasing life insurance means I’m explicitly shelling out for things I would not have bought on my own.

• I’m pulling a decent salary; I should be meeting all my bills (even my damn student loan, a $475/mo hole I won’t fill until I’m 70+) and sharing joint expenditures and buying an occasional piece of furniture or investing in repairs to her place and keeping my computer equipment up to par (I don’t go overboard, my main axe is a vintage '98 “WallStreet” PowerBook, although I’ve dumped improvements into it), and still have a couple hundred a month to put into my retirement account (the one separate from my 401k which eats 5% before taxes) and still have a bit to toss into my short-term savings account, the account from which the next entirely new computer and other major toys would get bought. Instead, while it may be subjective, and it may reflect unfortunate and unhealthy attitudes I have towards this relationship or rels in general, blah blah blah etc, I feel like more and more of what I can earn is being invested in this relationship, specifically in her apartment and related expenses.

• We met each other through personal ads that crossed each other (I read hers, replied by forwarding my own which I was posting to the same posting areas). Mine specified in part: “capable of supporting herself in the manner to which she is accustomed”. I didn’t want a dependent, nor did I want to be someone else’s dependent. You pay your bills, I pay my bills, we hang out and have fun as equal and mutual partners.

That’s about it. I don’t know if I’m exploitative, being exploited, or if we’re both being fair in our own ways but aren’t communicating.

Could use some feedbacks.

2

On the coop ownership, I’m a little confused. Would he pay off the outstanding mortgage? and she would keep the equity she already has, and he would own the other %? and in case of her death, you would get first refusal of the other %, and you pay him market price at that point (taking out a mortgage to do so, perhaps)? or you and he could decide to both sell, and divide the proceeds proportionately?

Or would he also buy out her equity? This would infuse her with cash, but take away her ability to bequeath it to anyone. And conceivably put him or his heirs in a position to evict her; this should barred in writing if his purpose is for her benefit.

These plans relieve her of a large expense during her lifetime. He would gain the appreciation of his portion of the ownership. You or she might buy him out at any time you could afford to, which would simplify things, if possible.

You gain nothing unless she does pre-decease you.
I’m not clear on the other issues.

3

Well there’s a personal component and a financial component. If you get agree to this tacit contract of “she agrees to will apartment to you <> you agree to get life ins. with her as beneficiary” quid pro quo you’re really getting way past a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Hell, in some ways you’re almost getting past a married relationship.

IIRC you’re not that old (20’s or early 30’s non-smoker?) . A 250K to 500K term life insurance policy on you can probably be had for 250 to 350 annually. So the cost is not huge in relative terms to make her happy vis a vis the relative balance of obligations. It’s peanuts.

As a practical matter you are just starting to escalate your earning potential, and she is on the slow downward slope due to her disability. Quite frankly, (IMO) her leaving the condo to you is not that big a deal for you in the larger scope of things. If your income contiinues to go up, you could easily manage getting a residence on your own, and on your own terms. If you decide to do this exchange of obligations deal with her I think you need to look at it as simply making her happy.

My main concern in you doing this deal is that it sounds like she is partly doing this not just out of love, but to bind you closer to her and you don’t strike me as someone who likes to be bound in any way, shape, or form. If the proposed deal makes you uncomfortable pass it, by and tell her (politely) to take Daddy Warbucks proposed deal.

The bottom line for you is that it’s likely to be only a few hundred bucks. The real issue is what doing this does to your relative power positions in the relationship. Right now they are kinda-sorta equal. If you do this deal she will feel (with some degree of justification) that she is offering you a great prize. When people give something they usually want something (not necessarily monetary) in return. She is probably (on some level) going to feel that you should be grateful to her for doing this. Is that a place you can handle being?

4

Yeah, that’s kind of my read on it, too.

I’m 45, not 20s-30s and term life is looking more like a grand per year.

I think I’m leaning towards telling her it was a sweet thought but that she should not put me in the will to inherit the apartment insofar as I have nothing to leave her, reciprocally, if I die first. Just take the guy up on the deal. (In the expanded version of the deal, he would be doing me a big favor for the years between her death and mine, which gives him as well as her legitimate reason to critique me as a freeloader if I don’t do the life-insurance thing).

MaryEFoo, I understand the confusion, believe me. He would be buying up the coop apt from the bank, and she would therefore be paying him, not the bank, the mortgage payments —except that she doesn’t actually pay him at all, just lets the debt rise with interest. That was the original proposal. She pointed out to him that she intended on leaving the place to me if she predeceased me, and that I would not likely be able to afford to pay off that astronomically huge debt, so he said I could continue living there and just pay him essentially a monthly rent, until I also died, whereupon the place becomes disposable to the trust fund for his kids. Who would somehow benefit (?) by all this huge debt of unpaid mortgage in some fashion that I did not follow. (There are reasons I don’t work in finance).

5

I’m confused – Who owns the coop, her or the former boss? Why should he have anything to do with inheriting it or part of it, etc.? Does she have children?

6

She has no children. He can’t just make an outright gift to her (taxes) so this is a way of him effectively doing it and it also benefits his kids way down the pike. He’s very wealthy and wants to do a good deed re: her.

7

What proportion of the cost of the coop has he paid, or does he anticipate paying over time? Why doesn’t she just specify in her will that upon her death, the coop gets sold, and the proceeds divided up between you and the former boss, either by percentage or by leaving you a set amount, and him the balance? It seems to me that getting you entangled in the boss’s financial planning, your future domicile, etc. is unnecessarily complex.

8

I wish you luck with all of this, and think that your plan of action (to tell her to leave you out of the will and take the Daddy Warbucks deal) is sound.

I think I must just have a special place in my craw reserved for people who do you a “favor” for which you did not ask and then think you owe them something for it (my sweet father, who was otherwise the best dad anyone could’ve asked for, was one of those people, and it made me want to poke him in the eye).

As for you coming off as a “freeloader” because you spend so much time at her place, I call “bullshit”. I don’t know you or your situation well, but it seems to me that if you have your own place, aren’t asking her for financial support of any kind, and are sharing some expenses related to repair, furniture, etc., at her place, then where’s the problem? Her place may be nicer, and since you have a roommate (roommates?) it does afford you the opportunity to be alone together, but the whole “quid pro quo” thing kinda chaps me (ooh, there’s another special craw compartment). I mean, she is getting your company (which presumably she enjoys) out of the deal, and as an added bonus she doesn’t have to do the driving (could your travel expenses to her place offset the “rent” you should be paying?).

It sounds to me like most of this is coming from Daddy Warbucks, however, and not her. And I do understand how easy it is to let someone you trust convince you that you’re being swindled (even by someone else you trust), but really, how much of this is his business? And if he’s using his purse strings to make it his business, well, then, that just sucks, even if his intentions are purely loving.

That said, I do have a (no-snark-intended, completely straight-up) question for you: Do you think some of your SO’s issues might be stemming from feelings on her part that there is emotional inequality in the relationship? Do you think that she would somehow derive more security in your feelings for her if you were willing to take out a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary? I mean, think of all of the other (sometimes expensive) material things we equate with true love and commitment (whether or not it’s true): diamond rings, houses, breast implants . . . . :wink:

(Seriously though; in grad school I was butt-poor, and my best friend, who’d married a Trust Fund Baby ™ was appalled by the fact that my boyfriend at the time (who worked full time and so had a little bit more $$$ than I did), was not giving me money–in reality, I considered him quite generous (he almost always paid for dinner and whatever other entertainment we enjoyed) , but as far as she was concerned, if he REALLY cared about me, he should be ponying up!) Is it possible that she feels (especially in light of the fact that D.W. is stepping up to the plate to try to ensure that she’s taken care of financially) that you, of all people, should be doing something to “take care of” her, to prove you really care?

As I said, best of luck to you–let us know how it turns out!

9

I think the real problem here is that your relationship has not progressed in the way that one would traditionally expect over six years. You do not speak of loving this woman or wishing to expand your commitment to her in any way. You don’t even refer to her as your “girlfriend”. After six years, most couples would be considering marriage, or at least talking about living together. My impression is that you don’t see this person as being your life-long mate, and that ultimately you are looking for more. It sounds like she is hoping your relationship will eventually move forward, while you know this will never happen. Sooner or later, this will become a huge issue, and she’s going to get hurt bad. There’s probably no way to prevent it this late in the game – it’s just a matter of when. Inheritances and insurance policies are going to make things more difficult at that point.

Whether or not you sort out the emotional morass is up to you. Meanwhile…
(1) Mr. Wealthy Mentor needs to butt the hell out of your relationship.
(2) You and she need to honestly discuss whether or not you are taking financial advantage of her. I don’t think you should be expected to help with her mortgage or help pay for apartment rennovations. She has her place, and you have yours. However, you should be paying for whatever costs she incurs because of your frequent presence. In addition to food and entertainment, that would include utilities (your presence does increase the water, electric and gas bills). There may be other expenses she feels you should be contributing toward (for example, birth control). Ask.

10

Well, we don’t wish to marry (each other or anyone else, ever). You may be right that there may be some elements or aspects of more traditional relationships that she wishes were incorporated into our relationship, I dunno.

I certainly don’t have a space in my head (or my heart) for some kind of “more committed” or “more important” or “more loving” relationship that this one falls short of, though.

11

There are two very different proposals here that are being intermingled.

In poposal A reflecting current reality, she has a normal mortage (the current scenario) on which she continues to make regular principal + interest mortgage payments, and when she dies at some point she wills the property to you. The assumption (I’m guessing) is that she will have paid down some goodly portion of the principal at that point (and possibly the condo will have increased in value). You now have the option to live in the condo (assuming you can acquire a loan for the remaining principal and make the mortgage payments at that time), or potentially to sell it and make a profit.

As a side note, a point to consider re post death affordability of the condo for you, is that if she wills it to you, the amount you will have to refinance upon her death will probably be considerably smaller than the current principal payment assuming she dies 10-15 years or so in the future. The monthly payment for you on this re-financed amount (assuming rates don’t go nuts) would potenially be substantially less than she is paying now and quite affordable.
In proposal B she sells Daddy Warbucks the condo and he essentially becomes the bank. He grants her a “life estate” in which she can occupy the condo payment free until her death (she still has to pay for normal maintenance of the property) , and upon her death it becomes his property which he can give to his kids, lease to you at “a market rate”, or do with as he pleases.

Under “B” I’m not really seeing any substantive benefit to you at all, unless he agrees ( in writing, as part of the life estate deal) to some fixed rent that is substantially below market. You can lease a place anywhere, and if she’s gone what is the motivation (for you) to lease that place?

12

Wait. He wants you to pay toward a mortgage on a property that he will own?

Sucker.
Just my opinion, but if he was only worried about her wellbeing he could just give her money. Instead, he’s making a grab for the property. Ultimately, I think he profits the most in this deal.

13

My only thoughts aren’t so much about the fincancial end of your relationship, but the personal.

If you aren’t cohabitating, it just doesn’t make sense to me that you would pay into the mortgage for her. If you were to break up, you would have paid into a mortgage without getting anything out of it. If you didn’t have a place of your own to live, then you would of course be responsible for paying her some kind of rent. But since you already have set up housekeeping for yourself, you are currently on equal terms. Your giving her money for housing would make you part of her support, which seems to delve into the ‘sugar daddy’ realm.

The fact that you are willing to spend less on your housing doesn’t mean that you should have to pay part of her living expenses, which are assumably not much greater for your relationship. It’s her choice to live in the manner to which she is accustomed.

For life insurance, doesn’t the recipient have to be financially affected by a death in order to collect? That’s what I was taught in my high school law class, but it was a high school law class, so who knows?

As for Daddy Warbucks, it sounds like he is trying to run your SO’s life. Imagine how much worse it will get if he does perform this favor.

14

No…you can name whoever you wish as the policy beneficiary. 250K for a 47 YO male non-smoker (in my case) costs about $ 400 annually. If you are a smoker or have a complicated medical history it may be more (much more) expensive, or simply unavailable (at a reasonable cost).

15

As others have said, I think it’s wrong to ask you to pay anything toward her place apart from expenses incurred by your being there, such as food and perhaps increased utility costs. Getting to hang out in a nicer place than yours is simply a benefit of dating someone who has a nicer place – for someone to try to charge for it is incredibly tacky.

The deal with her mentor buying her place and letting her live there for free sounds like a good one. If that ends up being significantly cheaper for her in the long run than paying the mortgage herself and she has legal assurances he can’t kick her out, I would tell her to go for it but not to make you part of the deal. She should set up the deal so that what fraction of the coop she owns (if any) is well-defined. What she does with this or any of her other assets when she dies is her decision, and should not be conditional on any behavior on your part. Ditto with the life insurance. If you want to take out insurance on yourself for her, it’s your decision, and should be done because you think you can afford it and want to do so.

16

It sounds as if she currently has enough cash flow to keep her nose above water, and she may be spending down, but her money should last till she’s past 100 if she keeps within her current rate. Is that correct?

But that sounds as if she wants to do anything more, ie travel, or renovate, or have a medical expense, or still be eating after 10 years’ inflation, she is SOL. Is that correct?

When Social Security kicks in, it pays depending on recent years’ earnings. What would that bring in?

She is disabled, with MS. Does that preclude her finding any gainful employment? (I apologize, I know nothing about MS.)

I can understand someone who cares about her would want to do something financial for her, whether someone means Daddy Warbucks, you, or both.

It sounds as if you broke up with her, you would not be comfortable full-time in your current base, and would move to a more expensive place to live.

Daddy Warbucks is not being generous to the detriment of himself (the wealthy seldom are, a fact of life). Any financial arrangements should be set up so no one gets a bad surprise. That’s why I was asking what I did about how the coop buy-out would be set up. For instance, if you do insurance, the amount for the premium could be paid to her and she could own the policy. This should all be worked out in advance, while everyone has the same understanding of what is wanted and what would happen under various circumstances.

In a marriage, the financial rules are set already by society. You are designing your own here, so you have to do more thinking in advance. You are asking what is fair.

It does seem that currently the financial flow is more from her toward you (housing, inheritance) and the world toward you (your future income vs. hers) than from you toward her (joint activities, splitting furniture purchases). What’s being negotiated are the insurance premium, expense of renovation, and coop expenses–actually the inheritance seems to be still in the process of negotiation.

You can say you two are separate individuals, and what’s between her and the world is her business, or you may feel like protecting her from some of the world’s vicissitudes at least. So feelings come into the finances also. But currently you aren’t rolling in it, and that’s an issue.

What happens if you suggest she postpone the renovation for, say, two years, to a point where you should have more disposable income? Oh, and a renovation should increase the value of the coop.

17

By AHunter3: “and he wants to buy out her share and then simply hold it, in essence making it unncessary for her to pay her mortgage”

Does this mean he intends to pay her, in lump sum, any equity she may now have in the property, or will he simply assume her mortgage? If the latter, there’s the rip-off as he’s stealing her equity.

In any case, he’s turning something simple into something very complex.

By MaryEFoo: "Daddy Warbucks is not being generous to the detriment of himself (the wealthy seldom are, a fact of life)." Too true.

By Dag Otto*“Just my opinion, but if he was only worried about her well being he could just give her money.”* Well said.

18

Mmm, good point except that she doesn’t actually have much equity. Most of what she’s paid so far has gone towards interest alone; very little of the principal has been touched.

I really appreciate all the feedback. I’m now thinking that I’d like to pay for renovations (but at the rate that I can afford them, not incurring debt that has to be paid off over time), but that I don’t want to be paying a monthly surcharge for staying over at her place; and if she feels this is unequal and unfair I’ll work on upgrading my digs to a nicer venue and insist that she hang out with me at my place 50% of our together-time. And as for the apartment, to turn down the offered inheritance and also the life insurance thingie.

19

If you really want advice, ***can ***the cutesypoo language.

It’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Hearing what you do don’t do isn’t as useful as to know as to what you can and can’t do and the reasons behind it.

20

:confused:

What cuteseypoo language are you referencing?