Seems on time/early people are rude even when people *aren't* late (LONG)

[CanvasShoes]

*Originally posted by Rhum Runner *
**I believe people that are habitually late are both rude and self absorbed. Erislover looks to be another prime example.

There’s this guy I’m in law school with, walks in five minutes late to every fucking class. I mean, the guy is punctual, he’s just wrong on the time. Class starts at 9, at 9:05, in comes Dumb Fuck. Every fucking day. Second class of the day starts at 11. 11:05, Dumb fuck walks in. He’s allready been in the fucking building for two hours, and he still can’t get there on time! WTF?

**

Some thoughts, but not intended to be arguments…

1.) I’m an instructor in the PE department of the local university. For safety reasons(to warm up and help prevent potential injury, etc) anyone more than 8 minutes late to class is not allowed to participate, they must make up that class or forfeit that class period (which effects their grade). This is non-negotiable. Am I a “rude” instructor? gosh, I hope not since it’s a mandatory university policy for all PE classes.

2.) Though Eris says he’s explained about the “social” thing, I didn’t get a very clear picture from his posts about just exactly how he covers his social “events”. His explanation about getting to the bar late and having to “catch up on drinking” seemed a bit…well, NOT answering other posters questions, to me. But I might have missed some.

So, with that in mind, (and just out of curiosity) if a movie starts at 7pm sharp, Eris, do you, or don’t you make it to the theatre in time to meet with, pick a seat (and junk food if so desired) with your friends and watch the previews etc)? Or do you, as per the “catching up on drinking” post, get to the theatre after the previews have started, wander around in the dark trying to find your friends?

3.) My dad was always late for stuff (usually due to stopping and helping a stranded motorist, etc). So, we used to always tell him things started a half an hour up to an hour before they actually did, just to even the playing field. We called it “dadtime”.

“Dadtime” works like a charm for the chronically late friend. No need for “dumping” friends etc.

[CanvasShoes]

Strange situation! I would order and expect the friend to do the same. The lunch is more or less irrelevant to the whole affair, it is just a backdrop to the meeting. I never expect lunch meetings to work unless it is a coworker for reasons that may or may not be obvious: work interferes in a lot of things for many people. I have no set time for lunch, I just eat some time between 11:30 and 1:30, and sometimes as late as 3, depending. That is a facet of my work, though, not me. If a customer calls with a problem, I do not get to just put them on hold to go eat. So the situation you describe, while a bit strange, is not entirely implausable. In practice the chances are much better that I would call my friend and inform him, or that he would call me when he arrived. I would not expect him to hold off ordering for me, and I would surely not wait on it for him.

In fact, I did have a friend that worked right down the street from me. We rarely got to eat together because of what I do and the problems with lunch scheduling, but the times we did were never set in stone that morning or anything. It is just lunch. **

I’m a bit perplexed here. Do you mean to say that it wouldn’t matter than you and your friend never got to see each other? How do you maintain a friendship with no interraction? Other than the brief phone call between the two of you to say “how about lunch” and then because of the different interpretations of “on time” the two of you never meet.

And did you also mean (regarding the second paragraph) that you frequently make lunch plans with your friend from “down the street” but rarely make it to the agreed upon time? (You may have very well meant these thoughts in an entirely different way, but it’s not coming across very clearly, sorry).

That sounds a bit deeper and stranger than just an issue with being forced, or what you perceive as being forced to comply with a certain idea of “on time”.

[II_Gyan_II]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**
So let’s say I do say “5, 5:30.” What time do you show up? 5:00? 5:10? Knowing it doesn’t bother me to wait, why wouldn’t you just show at 5:30? If punctuality matters to you, pick that time and be on time. Everyone wins. **

EXACTLY. So you do have a cut-off time. Then when you’re making appointments, simply make the meeting time your fail-safe time (5:30) and stick to that. What’s the problem in that ?

[II_Gyan_II]

erislover

Just to clarify my earlier response…

Originally posted by erislover *
**
I said five, five-thirty. That’s a nice window for me. I don’t feel pressured to show at 4:55 or anything. If I go outside that window and don’t call or anything, maybe we won’t meet, and damn right you’d be pissed about it.*

Do you always have a “window” ? In my earlier response, I was trying to say that if you do, then simply set your meeting time to the latter limit (5:30). What’s the problem then ?

If you don’t have a window, how does it work ?

[Creaky]

I’m late all the time for stuff, which does tend to annoy people; but hey, they do stuff that annoys me, so we’re even. It’s the give and take of coworkership and friendship, as it were.

If they choose not to wait for me to start meetings or go to dinner or a movie, I can accept that. I’ve yet to lose a friend or a job because of my lateness.

I am, however, mostly on time for trains and planes. They only had to hold a plane once for me, so that’s not so bad…!

[Lynn_Bodoni]

bong, there is absolutely NO need to copy the entire post, just to comment on the length of it. Don’t do that again.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[erislover]

*Originally posted by CanvasShoes *
I’m a bit perplexed here. Do you mean to say that it wouldn’t matter than you and your friend never got to see each other? How do you maintain a friendship with no interraction?

How do people come up with crazy hypotheticals? The situation was describing lunch, not all interaction.

Other than the brief phone call between the two of you to say “how about lunch” and then because of the different interpretations of “on time” the two of you never meet.

I admit it would make for an interesting twilight zone but do you really suppose it is plausible that we never see each other? I know no one who has a schedule that hectic. As an illustrative example it has merit. As an example of a rule for behavior it is a little silly. I laughed when I read it, anyway. I thought it was kind of amusing.

And did you also mean (regarding the second paragraph) that you frequently make lunch plans with your friend from “down the street” but rarely make it to the agreed upon time?

No, I rarely made plans. My work makes it very difficult to do, unfortunately.

That sounds a bit deeper and stranger than just an issue with being forced, or what you perceive as being forced to comply with a certain idea of “on time”.

Again, the issue is not so much that I do feel forced, but rather that I am forcing people as much as they are forcing me. Sometimes I do feel pressure to commit to a time even when I try very hard not to. This is not a rule, but it is not infrequent. I do not think the other person means me any harm by it or anything.

Gyan9

EXACTLY. So you do have a cut-off time. Then when you’re making appointments, simply make the meeting time your fail-safe time (5:30) and stick to that. What’s the problem in that?

I thought I had explained this already. Several times. To several people. I don’t know what your opinion is of me, but you must think I’m real stupid to not have thought of that.

5:30 (in this example) is not a fail safe. 5, 5:30 is a way to keep pressure off me that will cause me more stress and make me a less enjoyable person. I am the one with this “issue”. You want a hard and fast time; you are the one with that “issue”. I want a cushion, you want a hard and fast time, I show you a way to make it work in a general sense for both of us without the slightest problem like you ask and now we are back at square one again. Maybe it is time to ask you what the problem is. Is it so important that I agree with you on this? I am not asking you to agree with me and give up whatever standard of scheduling you prefer.

If you don’t have a window, how does it work ?

I think I have mentioned this as well. I am assuming you are not referring to events like movies. In these cases I am still either early or late. If I swing to be the side of being a punctual person I eat up my free time by being early for everyting, feel like I have none because I don’t, and am a pain in the ass to talk to or be around. If I don’t, and I am still forced to commit to times I do end up late enough for people to notice a pattern. You might note that neither of these are optimal solutions for anyone. In the general sense, I believe I have offered you one that is, where no parties are for the worse.

Time is not the problem. People forcing me is not the problem. There is no problem. I am a happy person. My friends are happy being in that position. This thread is motivated by the insistance that there is some objective merit to punctuality (which is itself not as unified of an opinion as some would have us believe) and that those who do not follow it must have some sort of problem, which I dare say doesn’t follow, and only leads to a hypocritical position (my assertion). The rather irresponsible speculation of psychological conditions and the veiled insults in an IMHO thread spawned this one (my irritation). The continued insistence that I deal with society instead of individual people kept it going, mysteriously (my confusion). I don’t know anyone who hangs out with society. That seems trivial.

[II_Gyan_II]

*Originally posted by erislover *

Gyan9
I want a cushion, you want a hard and fast time,

The +/- is a cushion. Maybe, it’s not enough of a cushion to you, so you call it “hard and fast”.

This thread is motivated by the insistance that there is some objective merit to punctuality

Isn’t there ? Life is finite, short and not “undoable”. That’s why there is time management.

[II_Gyan_II]

Originally posted by erislover *
**
5:30 (in this example) is not a fail safe.*

But you earlier said

• If I go outside that window and don’t call or anything, maybe we won’t meet, and damn right you’d be pissed about it.*

Isn’t the 5:30 then a fail-safe ?

[erislover]

Ask yourself, please: “A fail-safe for what?”

[erislover]

*Originally posted by CanvasShoes *
1.) I’m an instructor in the PE department of the local university. For safety reasons… anyone more than 8 minutes late to class is not allowed to participate, they must make up that class or forfeit that class period (which effects their grade). This is non-negotiable. Am I a “rude” instructor?

Do you really suppose I would say so?

His explanation about getting to the bar late and having to “catch up on drinking” seemed a bit…well, NOT answering other posters questions, to me. But I might have missed some.

Just to be clear, in that example it was implied that I would be there before the other person.

So, with that in mind, (and just out of curiosity) if a movie starts at 7pm sharp, Eris, do you, or don’t you make it to the theatre in time to meet with, pick a seat (and junk food if so desired) with your friends and watch the previews etc)? Or do you, as per the “catching up on drinking” post, get to the theatre after the previews have started, wander around in the dark trying to find your friends?

In another post I mentioned a common solution was to meet up somewhere before the movie instead, like for a drink or at someone’s house. In still other posts I have mentioned that the occasions where time is dictated by external events I can be on time. Does this answer your question?

“Dadtime” works like a charm for the chronically late friend. No need for “dumping” friends etc.

:shrug: If that works, go for it.

[II_Gyan_II]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**Ask yourself, please: “A fail-safe for what?” **

what = Not missing or pissing off the person you wanna meet.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Well, I don’t think that being late is rude, but I think lying is.

Quite often my BF will say “I’ll be over between 10 and 11. However, I might not make it until 12.” OK. Between 10 and 12.

This I don’t mind at all.

However, saying “I’ll meet you at 7:00” or even agreeing on a set time, and then showing up 1/2 an hour late, makes you a liar.

If you can’t honor a comitment, don’t make it.

If someone say’s lets meet at 7:00, either be there at 7:00, or say “Well, I might not make it until 8:00.”

At least then you’ve given the other person a reasonable timeline to work with. They give consideration to the fact that you might be later than planned, and you give consideration to the fact that they might plan to bring alternative entertainment if they know that you might be late.

[erislover]

I’m sorry, I’m really not sure I understand the question, then. Is there any way to elaborate what you’re trying to get at?

You: “Is 5:30 then a fail-safe for you not missing the person or pissing the person off?” I am pretty sure the answer is “yes-ish and no”; no, no more than the hypothetical person’s comment of “probably not until 5:45” was a fail-safe for not pissing me off; yes-ish, we are attempting to meet and should a meeting happen it will happen within some time frame and we are stating our expectations of it.

Life is finite, short and not “undoable”.

And will be so whether you set specific times to do things at or not.

[CanvasShoes]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**How do people come up with crazy hypotheticals? The situation was describing lunch, not all interaction.

No, no, no!! Not a hypothetical. Just a question (please see my post again). Granted, a question with some slight exaggerations, but if you read my post, you will see that I make quite clear that the premise of my post is that I’m not understanding your answer.

I admit it would make for an interesting twilight zone but do you really suppose it is plausible that we never see each other? I know no one who has a schedule that hectic. As an illustrative example it has merit. As an example of a rule for behavior it is a little silly. I laughed when I read it, anyway. I thought it was kind of amusing.

Well, it was supposed to be silly. Perhaps you just aren’t getting what you really mean across well enough for all of us to “get” but it seems, based on your posts in this thread, that you have a lot of very stringent rules for how you spend your time and who gets to “intrude” upon it.

Are you sure your IRL name isn’t Larry? You remind me soooooooo much of a former bf of my sister. The man wouldn’t commit to a hello for crying out loud.

We have a running family joke (he’s still a good friend of the family’s), if you asked Larry about doing anything, even something as simple as having a quick bit at Mickey D’s his answer was always “oh noon?!!! I don’t know, that’s a LOOOoooOOOng ways off, plans could change”.

No, I rarely made plans. My work makes it very difficult to do, unfortunately. Again, the issue is not so much that I do feel forced, but rather that I am forcing people as much as they are forcing me. Sometimes I do feel pressure to commit to a time even when I try very hard not to. This is not a rule, but it is not infrequent. I do not think the other person means me any harm by it or anything.

That seems kind of sad. I mean, wouldn’t it be easier and less stressful for all involved (well, not you I guess) to just go ahead and make the plans? Then, if something came up, you could just call and say so.

Anyway sorry went off track, to answer your question (comment?) no, I was just trying to clarify what you meant and yes, I used some slight exaggerations to do so.

[II_Gyan_II]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**
And will be so whether you set specific times to do things at or not. **

Time management doesn’t seek to eliminate those deficiences, but make optimal use of them.

But, to come back to our original thread of discussion.

We aren’t getting anywhere this way (atleast I).

So, let’s simulate a conversation.

We both live in London. Work 9-5 jobs with an hour lunch break.
Live within an hour’s commute of each other and our jobs. Our jobs are half-hour from each other.

We want to meet “tomorrow”. It’s evening (9ish). And I call you.

Gyan : Long time, no see. Can we meet tomorrow ?

[erislover]

And if optimal use of time was the most important thing—something, you might see by now, that I question—then you’d have a great point, Gyan9.

And I won’t be playing your game. I don’t know how many more hypotheticals and explanations I need to give, but if people are starting to think I’ve got some rulebook regarding social interaction I think it is time to let to dog die. I gave you a fine general idea of what I’d say. If you can’t figure it out I’m sorry.

CanvasShoes

Perhaps you just aren’t getting what you really mean across well enough for all of us to “get” but it seems, based on your posts in this thread, that you have a lot of very stringent rules for how you spend your time and who gets to “intrude” upon it.

I don’t recall mentioning any rules at all, actually. I recall using the word “rule” as a bit from the comparison between “exception” and “rule”. I admit that having all sorts or rules regarding lateness would be quite counter-productive.

That seems kind of sad. I mean, wouldn’t it be easier and less stressful for all involved (well, not you I guess) to just go ahead and make the plans? Then, if something came up, you could just call and say so.

Why would I make plans that had a good chance of being completely broken? Indeed, that is part of the reason why I don’t like setting more specific times! Geez

There are seven lunches is a week, and a whole lot more dinners.

[Fenris]

*Originally posted by erislover *
Then don’t force me to make a promise about something silly like time. Think you can work with that?

You keep saying this.

How in the world is anyone forcing you to lie about when you’ll be somewhere?

Over and over every single person has said that a few minutes is no big deal and you keep dredging up the straw-man of the anal-retentive time-Nazi. This strawman of yours most likely doesn’t exist, but let’s grant that strawman’s existance and see a better way of dealing with the situation than lying.

Sample conversation between ERL and Hypothetical Anal-Retentive Prick (HARP), per ERL

HARP: Let’s get together for a beer and then go see a movie. I’ll expect you there at 7:02:38

ERL: Um…I don’t know that I can make that precisely: traffic’s a bear and I might have to do a little extra at work. What say we agree on 7:00, give or take 15 minutes?

HARP: No you fucker. 7:02:38 or I’ll kill you! I’ll kill you dead!

ERL: I’m sorry. I guess we can’t get together then. I’m unable to agree to a time that precise, and I won’t lie about it. I’ll be happy to meet you between 6:45 and 7:15, but I can’t say exactly when within that range.

HARP: No! I demand you set an exact time! AGREE WITH ME DAMMIT!

ERL: Sorry. I guess we’ll have to get together some other time. Bye.

HARP: Fine. 7:00 give or take 15. I’ll see you there.
or
HARP: Ok. I’ll see you some other time.

Either way, you’re not lying about the situation and you’ve given the other person the choice of waiting or not. When you lie and say you’ll be somewhere at a given time and then don’t show, you’ve taken the choice away from them. And since they’re the ones who’ll have to wait for you, the choice to wait or not should be theirs, not yours.

Fenris

[CanvasShoes]

*Originally posted by erislover *
CanvasShoes**I don’t recall mentioning any rules at all, actually. I recall using the word “rule” as a bit from the comparison between “exception” and “rule”. I admit that having all sorts or rules regarding lateness would be quite counter-productive.

No, you need to read what I said again. I said “based on your posts…it SEEMS…”.

Why would I make plans that had a good chance of being completely broken? Indeed, that is part of the reason why I don’t like setting more specific times! Geez

There are seven lunches is a week, and a whole lot more dinners. **

LOL, well, because you want to actually SEE the person who requested said plans? (You ARE my sister’s ex, aren’t you? hehe)

See, people “make time” to do the things they reaaaaallly want to do. If you (collective you) have someone you want to spend time with and it’s important enough to you to spend time with them, then you’ll make it to spend time with them, and reasonably “on-time” too.

If you don’t, then whatever you choose to do instead of making it to the plans with your friend/lover whomever, is more important to you.

If, as you have explained (or seem to have explained) to all of us, have a completely different and unorthodox method of “making it to plans” can’t seem to make those plans, and seem to fear “breaking them, so why make them” then it seems that to you, freedom from this particular societal convention of “being on time” is more important than the rewards of spending time withIN the plans that being on time for gives a person.

What I have gleaned from your posts (and granted, it could just be that this subject is not getting across well due to the medium) is that you have a fear of being “pinned down” to anything approximately a “schedule”. Maybe not having to answer to a schedule = “freedom” to you?

In your case, a cell phone would be the answer to everyone’s wishes (well not completely, I’m being goofy), but think about it. You make plans, realize you won’t be able to “meet the time frame” so you simply call!!!

Voila, both people’s problems solved. You aren’t being held to your “promise” the other person can eat or whatever and move on.

I still think it sounds lonely though

[cmosdes]

Are airlines and movie theaters rude for setting a strict schedule? I mean talk about time-Nazis! Airlines schedule take offs and landings down to the minute!

Are they not being rude because they have other constraints on them and given those constraints they need to set a strict schedule? Why is it so hard to then reflect that back to the people you deal with? I know, you will say it is rude for them not accept your open schedule. But the truth is, you aren’t ranting against the airlines and seem to be okay with them having strict schedules. That part just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Maybe I don’t understand why you aren’t upset with airlines for setting strict schedules.

How do you deal with meeting times at work? Are you usually on-time for those? Is it equally annoying if someone sets a strict start time for a meeting?

Does it bother you if the cable company (or telephone or whatever) can give you only a 4 hour window?

I’m not saying you are right or wrong for how you deal with time. That is between you and the people you need to deal with. This rant was against the people who do have a desire for punctuality. It seems there is a lack of understanding which goes both ways.