Gee, it is like you know me :rolleyes: I just love ultimatums! Best way to a friend’s heart!
So you’re going to critique your reading of my perception of “time nazis” by having me make ultimatums?
They all have guns.
I think you’re reading a bit more into my posts than are there.
More than most likely, I think. I seem to recall myself ridiculing the notion of such exact times on at least two occasions. At the time I had hoped it would point out that people aren’t as rigid about time as their characterization of the chronically late/punctual dichotomy required.
Not quite. But it isn’t as easy as you mention all the time. Perhaps you are making the mistake of thinking everyone is like you?
So what’s “a few minutes” to you, Fenris? Five? Ten? Thirty? What do you hope to prove here, that you are a nice, more or less easy-going person? We already knew that.
CanvasShoes
If you (collective you) have someone you want to meet and it’s important enough to spend time with them, you’ll overlook some waiting time now and again. See how easy it is to turn arbitrary standards around?
I’m not afraid of it; I don’t handle it well, so I don’t do it. And it isn’t “anything approximating a schedule”. I have a schedule. It is just more flexible (when I can make it be) than more people than not care for themselves. But because of the polarity demanded by the perspective of “BEING ON TIME [sub]well plus or minus a few minutes[/sub]” I am not just a little bit off other people, I am CHRONICALLY LATE.
Everyone thinks they’re reasonable. Not everyone thinks alike. Any conclusions we can draw from that?
If I know there’s a decent chance I won’t make it, why would I make a time? Why is it so important to make plans like you? Why can’t we, as two people, work out the situation? We can, of course (well I expect we would), most of the people I know handle it just fine. As they get to know me they quit saying things like “If you can’t make 7 say 7:30” and everything is peachy.
Yes, as you can see, depending on the person and the events there really is no issue. Could that have been what I have been attempting to demonstrate through much of the last several days? I think it is!
Let’s hypothesize that this is a complete list. I mean, these are the sole factors you consider, and you consider all of them, each time. And let’s also hypothesize that everyone else uses these same five criteria all the time, all of them, but only them.
Even then, that’s 5 things you might see differently than someone else, and thus might come to a different conclusion about what an acceptable +/- is.
But there’s only two judgments (most) people make, and that’s rude or polite, late or punctual. Both relative standards on personal scales.
The main objection I had was the word “force”. If we agree that no-one is “forcing” you to lie about when you’ll arrive then I don’t much care: you’ve obviously got a social situation that works for you, but I hate the idea of people making fake promises 'cause I’m somehow “forcing” them to do so.
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:: shrug :: If that’s how you want to characterize it, sure. Being honest is better than lying as a general rule and since these horrible people are “forcing” you to lie with their rigid time-binding senses, being up front about your unwillingness to submit to their evil punctuality is probably best for all concerned. If nothing else, my method leaves you the moral high-ground: they can’t reasonably get pissed if you show up two hours late after saying you’d show up two hours late and they agreed in advance.
But in any case, my example wasn’t an ultimatum, it was honesty. (to paraphrase) “I cannot commit to being there at a specific time. If that won’t work for you, perhaps you should make other plans” strikes me as being refreshingly honest. You’ve given the other person the choice of waiting or not and no-one reasonable would be pissed. Saying “I’ll be there at 7:00 sharp” and then NOT showing at 7:00 sharp takes away his/her choice to wait.
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Heh. The original draft, the HARP actually did have a gun. You disarmed him with a laid back form of karate (he had to wait for the blow to arrive) but I decided it was too over-the-top. Great minds apparently think alike.
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I don’t care what “a few minutes” means because I’ll do my damnedest to get a straight answer out of the person saying it, if I know that the person using the phrase “a few minutes” can mean anything from +/-5 minutes to +/- 50 minutes. All I want is an honest range so I can decide if I feel like waiting for the other person or not. Or so I can show up later. Or so I can say “Hell, if you’re schedule’s that up in the air, why don’t we just meet at my place when you’re free and we’ll go whenever you get here.” or even “Well, maybe we can try again next week”. Really. Just tell me in advance. If you say you’ll be there at 7:00, then I’ll expect you there (say) +/- 10 minutes. Say “I don’t have a good goddamn when I’ll be there” and we can make plans accordingly. But let me know!
I really have a major problem with people who say “Yeah. I’ll be there at 7:00 sharp” and then get all bent out of shape that I’m annoyed when they toddle in at ten-to-eight on a consistant basis.
I can work with ranges of time. I can work with non-specific times. Or if I can’t on a given occasion (“I only have a half-hour for lunch, so we’ll need to get there at the same time, if we’re gonna spend any time together”), there’s always other times when I can. I’m certainly not going to end a friendship over punctuality. I am willing to end a friendship over lies. And to me, “Well, I knew I couldn’t be there at 7:00 sharp like I said promised I would be, but it’s not my fault 'cause you forced me to agree to the time.” is, in my book, a lie. (And if your friends really are apt to “force” you to commit to unreasonable time expectations, you need a better class of friends.)
That’s a matter of perspective. I don’t know that it is a lie, first off. But I’ll stick with the word here without picking more nits which is only going to complicate the issue unnecessarily. Secondly, I don’t think it is better than lying in the cases I deal with because an ultimatum (you’ll see why I continue to use this in a minute) leaves a real negative impression… lying because the person doesn’t yet “get it” about how I feel about the subject can be worked around.
For it to escalate to the kind of force you associate with the word, there’s no way I’d even try to be friends with them in the first place. But there’s other kinds of force than just being a hypothetically extreme time nazi.
Of course… but please quit classifying it as lying. I may well be on time within your accepted parameters. I don’t know in advance and neither do you. It is easier to work lateness out than ultimatums. It is also easier to demonstrate a perspective over more than a few incidences. I cannot just magically make people not pick specific times (which is: more specific than I would like) any more than they can magically make me fit within their parameters. Really, again and again everyone says “it is just that simple, erl, don’t do this or do this”. Of course everyone has great ideas… because those are the ideas they think will work with them, or would work for them, or have worked… for them. And shit if I ever try and meet any of you for a fucking dopefest I know where to look to figure out how to do it “right”. For you. Everything you do seems easy for you (and naturally so), and of course you and your friends are going to get along easily over time, too.
But you don’t have to be a time nazi to apply pressure to conform to your conditions, and yeah I consider that pressure “force”. It is a willful act of making things go your way when you see they aren’t. And what request do you want me to make? You suggest I tell them I can’t commit to a time… thus forcing them to conform to my views, something which is just as bad when I do it as when someone else does. That’s why I don’t consider that a very viable solution, you see? Here’s the ultimatum (I promised I would reference above): “adopt my concept of time or don’t, that’s just the choice you have.”
There is a wise old saying that goes something like: in fighting the time nazi, be careful not to become one.
It really, really, really isn’t. A punctual person I am really getting to know might not be able to think anything other than what was standard in the IMHO threads: I am rude, arrogant, selfish, communist, whatever. It is not something you just “bring up”. Maybe you’ll just have to trust me on that. It doesn’t really take any work to do, I am not expending a lot of effort to find a compromise, but what people will compromise on might not be apparent right away, and not finding the more common views on time to be that great, it is a stupid thing to push right off the bat when in essence I do have some time before any habitual lateness becomes a real issue… long enough for me to either do something about it if I want to be better friends (I know more about you by this time) or to just say my goodbyes anyway because the friendship isn’t what I thought it would be.
With you, maybe. With me, and probably a lot of others here, I’m forcing them to adopt my view implicitly. I’d be making the same mistake the time-nazi is (he is quite a good fellow for illustrative purposes).
Well I won’t disagree there, it is honest as hell. But I won’t tell them I jerk off over Penthouse right off the bat, too, even if it will help them get to know me better, quicker. :eek:
Wait, I just said that, didn’t I? [cuts off his betraying tongue]Ber. Baft bebbewr.
But that choice is: “deal with my standard or don’t.” There are other options and such a choice might stop them from ever appearing.
I will never say “7:00 sharp” unless a gun is held to me! But “seven” is quite enough for most, and even “about 7” slips by unnoticed. 7:10 rolls around and whammo. (hyperbole)
We’ll leave the fools part out of it.
I wish more people were like this, but this thread should be evidence enough that it really isn’t that easy as a general proposition. It isn’t really any harder, but there are different solutions people will accept.
But I’m not saying it isn’t my fault, and I’m not saying it is theirs.
While I am sure I agree as you seem to be using “force”, there are many more innocuous (a relative term, that) uses of pressure that people unwittingly use all the time to get things their way. Probably more than I notice, but because this particular issue really affects me I do notice this aspect.
But if, as you said earlier in the thread, you can’t/won’t show up on time for most get-togethers (I can’t remember the term you chose, but you excluded movies/concerts, etc where the event happens at a specific time).
Given that you won’t/can’t commit to a specific time but you’re telling them you are and still making them wait, you’re already forcing them to conform to your views, but you’re taking away their choice about it.
Let’s rephrase your ultimatum: “The reality is that I cannot/will not be able to conform to your standard of time, so I leave the choice to you: should we get together with that caveat in mind or not?” Given that the alternative is apparently to say “Sure, I’ll be there on time” and then have to deal with a pissed off friend who waited 45 minutes in a snow-storm for you, I’d say the up front approach is better.
And besides, what’s the third alternative? There’s no real compromise between “Let’s meet at Broadway and Colfax at 7:00 give or take 10 minutes” and “I’ll be there when I show up. I’ll try to be there around 7:00 but I may or may not be much later.” One of the two people is going to be “forced” to compromise their concept of time. Why not be up-front about your position? If they’re not gonna budge and require you to be on time and if you’re not gonna budge and will be late, what’s the alternative.
And back on page 1, you did an imaginary conversation between you and a friend who wanted to get together. As someone who’d be likely be more lumped into the “time-nazi” category than hippie “time is an illusion, tea-time doubly so” category ;), I gotta say, I’d have no problem with the situation described at all: you were up front and your friend wasn’t left hanging.
I would have a problem if I’d said “Around five” and, instead of saying “OK! Give me a call” you said “Sure! I’ll be there!” and then didn’t show for 45 minutes, leaving me hanging at some sleazy pool-hall with dubious low-lives.*
Fenris
*Hey, if I’m gonna go play pool, I’m not gonna do it in no yuppie poolhall!
Fenris
I won’t commit to a time, unless I feel it would be worthless to pursue the topic, in which case I may be late. It is not intentional, ever.
That is only the alternative if I am always late. No one is always late.
So show up and plan for an “on time arrival” at 7:30. Does it bother you that I’m not giving you an exact time? Because you can set one for yourself perfectly well, can’t you? —Then the punctual person has a time, I don’t, and everyone meets up.
Should I say “It’s just that simple”? No. Some people probably won’t like this idea.
spooje, of course, if early means “before others arrive”.
So, as the punctual person, I should arrive a half hour late.
:rolleyes:. I should adjust to you. Yet you are the one complaining about the time nazis forcing you to conform to them.
And once you realize I am now arriving late, you will likely adjust your schedule so that you start arriving later.
Every single one. I state again, that you are complaining about having to conform. At the same time you are trying to make others conform to your time standards (or lack of them).
Fenris put it well.
How do you expect to meet someone if you don’t set some type of time? Do you always tell people that you may be a 1/2 hour late? You recommended that the ‘prompt’ person just come late to whatever agreed to time. Why not just set the time to 1/2 hour later? That is the effect of what you are saying. BUT, if we set the time to a half hour later, should we then expect you to be another 1/2 hour late?
Let’s try this from another angle since these don’t seem to be getting through. Physics have shown us that time in a dimension. It is a critical element in defining a position in space/time itself.
Erislover wants to disregard one dimesion while observing the other three. What if someone had a different but related problem. They didn’t want to feel confined to one of the other dimensions. When you make plans to meet at a certain restaurant, you know that they will be on time but they may be two blocks away, two miles across town, or just behind the restaraunt but rarely waiting in the lobby. It is up to you to figure out where the person is. You would think that person was just plain crazy. Well, there you go.
If you (collective you) have someone you want to spend time with and it’s important enough to you to spend time with them, then you’ll make it to spend time with them, and reasonably “on-time” too.
Well, if it’s just “now and again” then sure, of course, but based on the bulk of your posts in defense of “your way” you seem to say that not making it to meet with people because of the way you do the “time thing” is not just “now and again” but usually what happens. Maybe buddies are more casual about this, but if my bf were that lackadaisical about whether or not we got together? I’d be first, upset and bummed that he didn’t care about seeing me very often, and eventually I’d find someone that would spend time with me. And, I have a feeling that some “just buddies” might feel the same way as well, if it, the just not showing up until the other person was “waited out” and has left, happened on too regular a basis.
quote: Shoes
What I have gleaned from your posts (and granted, it could just be that this subject is not getting across well due to the medium) is that you have a fear of being “pinned down” to anything approximately a “schedule”.
But, in another post, you said that one reason you didn’t like to “schedule” times to meet with someone was because you “had things to do right up unti the second before you were to go meet with the other person” (paraphrased).
Well, if I remember right, you said you WERE on time for work, meetings and the like. Correct?
So I guess my question would be: What makes personal relationships different? What makes a person, as opposed to a “necessity” such as work, rate less of an effort insofar as “on time” is concerned? Again, not trying to change your mind, or say your way is not as correct or whatever. Just trying to clarify what’s already been said.
It seems as if, to me at least, that to be “on time” for work and meetings and yet NOT “on time” to see your buds (frequently to the point of not even making in time to see your friends and/or acquaintances, based on some of your posts) is kind of backward in priorities, no?
I mean, seeing friends is FUN man, (isn’t it? If not, maybe you need new friends? psst that was facetious). Anyway, it seems as if people would be more likely to make it on time to something pleasant and fun than the other way around.
quote: Shoes
You make plans, realize you won’t be able to “meet the time frame” so you simply call!!!
Ummmm, Eris? Most people call “working out the situation” making plans.
Okay, let me break it down a bit further, You want to see X, you call X, if you don’t “make plans” how are you going to SEE X? X wants to see you! Why is that a “bad” or “too scheduled” thing? There ARE only so many hours in a day.
Since you and X want to see each other and spend some time together, I don’t understand why “making plans” to do so seems to imply some sort of forced torture.
Your question was "Why is it important to make plans, (like me? hmmm, like MOST of us would be more correct I think)?
Well the answer to “why is it important to make plans”? (presumably plans designed to give people time to spend together and socialize and have fun) is so that the 2 (or more) people involved have the optimal amount of (and the prime time) to spend together.
Not even sure what to say regarding this one. Do you mean to say that your friends and family don’t care that they don’t get to spend much time with you?
quote: Shoes
Voila, both people’s problems solved. You aren’t being held to your “promise” the other person can eat or whatever and move on.
It could have been, but it wasn’t coming across very clearly. But adding in the qualifier “Depending upon the Person and the Event” does make a difference.
I think what the rest of us are saying is that time, and the spending of it with people we care about, IS important to most of us and that we are hurt (annoyed insert emotion of your choice here) when someone whom we’d like to see doesn’t show up. And that that is what is causing the questions.
Not a desire to make you change your ways.
And again, the above questions are brought about by what you appear to be saying based upon your posts, it doesn’t appear that you are terribly interested in making sure you show up or not regarding spending time with “your people”. Again, Based on your posts. That doesn’t mean that’s how it really is, but that’s what you appear to be saying.
