Okay. I think I understand. For example, you would rather go to a bookstore (for example) and browse around until I showed up, then we’d go to lunch. Is that correct?
If I’m interpreting this correctly, you and other posters may be arguing at cross purposes here.
If there is no objective merit to being on time, then why is there objective merit to any promise?
…to keeping any promise.
I think you are interpreting that correctly, but I don’t think we are talking at cross purposes, because they seem to think that the number of situations available for this sort of treatment are so small that I must end up lying to people about commitments all the time.
Again, this is just illustrative, just one solution I have found. It can’t always work, I have things to do, too. But I’ve yet to find a situation that can’t be worked around, except time-sensitive things like movies, for which I can just bite the bullet—we all have our crosses to bear 
As long as it doesn’t happen all the time there is no problem for me.
Getting to this point, though, where I can just toss solutions out, does require knowing the person better than just an acquaintance. I need to know what they do, what they like, and so on. Until that time I can’t just willy nilly make suggestions about what to do, and so I try and get as broad of a cushion on time as they will stand and agree to that. I’m not always late, so it takes more than a few meetings for anyone to notice anything.
I do not understand this question. What makes you think there is objective merit to any promise? What makes you think my separation from caring about time necessarily impacts my caring about promises? What, in short, makes you ask this question? What is the question?
So, I’ve been called -
A motherfucker (you quoted me in the OP)
A fucking ninney.
A Fucking stupid idiot.
Yet you think it’s people like me that are rude :rolleyes:
I you don’t think anyone is at fault, then you shouldn’t make statements like this one.
You just said that what you care about, or rather don’t care about, is punctuality, not time itself. (“This thread is motivated by the insistance that there is some objective merit to punctuality”…). Punctuality is what happens when a promise to be on time is kept, isn’t it?
erislover
you are my hero.
have you also noticed that the terminally punctual, more than anything else, are so God-damned proud of having arrived 3 minutes early?
my theory is that it comes down to management.
A) from a manager’s standpoint it is much easier to track the punctuality of your charges than their actual productivity over an 8 hour day.
thus:
mary: here at 7:59 = good worker
bill: here at 8:01 = bad worker
never mind what each of them accomplishes during the other 479 minutes of the day, the manager would actually have to pay attention and do his job to properly measure each individuals worth to the firm. this way he can just show up at 7:58 and put his feet up at 8:02.
B) since we have demonstrated that mary is the superior employee, she is the individual from the prior example who will be promoted and perpetuate the above practice rewarding and promoting her punctual cohorts.
C) hi Opal
“Punctuality is the cheapest of virtues.”
don’t know who said it, anybody?
All right, I’ll give this a try. I characterize myself as neither terminally punctual nor terminally late.
I do not believe that there is any objective benefit to being punctual. Arrangements in which time is a factor are made not because they are virtuous but because they are useful. Every time I choose how stringent these arrangements are, I make an impromptu cost-benefit analysis.
“I need to catch this plane. It would be really fucking inconvenient if I didn’t. I will be precisely on time.”
“My friend and I only have about an hour for lunch. I want to maximize the time we spend chatting and eating, rather than having either of us wait hungrily at the table. I’ll be on time, within a ten minute tolerance.”
“My friends and I are going to spend the night chilling, eating pizza, and generally doing nothing. They are starting to get together at eight. If there are other ways I would rather spend my time, then I will do so. I hurt no one by being late, and keeping this arrangement with rigor lacks utility to anyone.”
So there you have it. I will make a time commitment whose rigor is directly proportional to its utility to me and to the people I am going to spend time with.
If erl and I were going to hang out for lunch during a weekday and he has greater flexibility with his time, I imagine we would work out an arrangement rather like this.
“Lunch at Nino’s? One o’clock?”
“Nah, not sure if I can do that. Between one and one-thirty?”
“Sure.”
And I’d show up at around 1:20. Why? Because this arrangement wouldn’t piss either of us off. He doesn’t mind waiting a few minutes, and neither do I. If my schedule is less flexible, then I’ll plan on being there to minimize my wait time.
Reservations for dinner?
“Between eight and eight-thirty.”
I’ll make them for eight-thirty, show up at twenty past, and get a drink at the bar. If he’s early, I’d expect to see him there.
While I understand that people instinctively resent the fact that their time is wasted by late people and resent that such people may want greater consideration, I fail to see why this is so difficult or even selfish. I, generally punctual, can benefit from this arrangement, too.
Yes you fucking stupid ninny-idiot, I do think that people who insult me in an IMHO forum are rude. If that is “like you” then there you go.
Oh please. Cheesesteak said it was “the timing we agreed to” and I responded “guess who’s idea it was to make time so fucking important”. If you read the whole dialog instead of snipping out that little bit you’d see his idea of being accomodating was to just pick another time.
So yeah, if I suggest that referencing exact times is something I can’t commit to without breaking a promise, and then the person goes ahead and suggests that I commit to another time, then I think I’m in the clear for saying what I said.
And politeness is what happens when people work around varying standards rather than pressing their own. So am I to assume that if I agree with you that I am making and breaking promises, that you will also agree with me that people pressing times are not being polite themselves? [NOTE: this is not my claim, never has been, etc; I do not think people are being rude by trying to set times, I think they are doing what they normally do and what has worked for them without any problems; I certainly do not consider this a fault, and I only expect the same treatment in return]
Also note that if it comes down to “make a promise you may break and see someone, or don’t make a promise and don’t get to see them at all” I will make a promise. I think this is looking at the issue very narrowly, as I mentioned to Fenris you’d have to be just about holding a gun to my head to get me to say something like “I’ll be there at seven sharp”.
pfbob, that’s a pretty cynical but amusing take. I’ve known some employers like that, but thankfully my current one isn’t one of them.
I like that very much, Maeglin. “I will make a time commitment whose rigor is directly proportional to its utility to me and to the people I am going to spend time with.” I would only add that if the commitment becomes too tight and I do not personally see the utility, I will attempt to find an alternate solution like ones mentioned above (meeting somewhere else, etc).
Your quote of me from the OP
“[My wife’s] father had a good saying. If you are late and making someone wait for you, you are telling them that your time is more important than theirs. Simply put, true and good advice.”
Your response
*
I see. And expecting people to be punctual and live by your schedule is just common sense because you are the truest and rightest person ever, you cutie you!*
Yep, expecting people to follow through on their commitments is pretty much common sense. Do you think that’s asking too much?
My statement was an opinion, if it applies to you, and you find it insulting, so be it.
Don’t ask for time commitments. Do you think that’s too much? We can play this game as long as you want.
I already tried a similar example Sauron, he didn’t get it.
I think it would be pretty difficult. Where and what, without a when.
Whatever Eris, no hard feelings, honestly. See you in the “SUV’s, Gun control, and you”. Thread. 
Whew! I was hoping “ninny” would give a hint I’m just pitting.
But really, I and anyone in this thread who even remotely agreed with me would never want their lateness to be interpreted as saying our time was more important than yours. That is a consequence of the very view we don’t hold in the first place. “I view time as that important and so when I find someone is what I consider to be unreasonably late I feel like they feel their time is more important than mine.” That would be much more accurate, IMO.
You didn’t like my response?
Am I too late to disagree with erislover
erislover don’t you find you miss out on a lot of things because of this attitude? Like not seeing a film because you arrive too late, or waiting 2 hours for a train because you arrive to early? Or do you consider such things to be worth your while to be on time for?
I didn’t see one. Sorry.
Bippy, could ERL have been any clearer? Have you been not paying FUCKING attention? He would simply not place himself in a situation where being forced to commit to a time constraint would make either him or his friends meeting him unhappy!
From where do you get the idea that only “such things” are worth his while to be on time for? And what do YOU mean by “on time?” ERL has already stated in depth his reaction that he attempts to not make himself unduly unhappy by placing himself in such a situation, and I think his explanations really can’t get any more forthright or clearer at this point and damn you all for henpecking this stalwart spirit unbounded by the straight-jacketed constraints of linear time flow.