Serdar Argic's cousin is a member of the SDMB

The BBQ Pit
101

I am dubious that anyone is seeking to convert Jews for the purpose of eliminating Judaism. There are missionaries in China, Africa, Korea, and everywhere else around the globe trying to convert people. Are they trying to eliminate those cultures too? What is your standard for ‘elimination’.

And missionaries in the far east are very likely targetting and tailoring their mission to converting Buddhists. I fail to see how conversion is annihilation when it comes to Jews, but not other cultures. So it is possible that I am confused as you say, or that I have an axe to grind, if it’s the latter then my axe to grind is your use of annihilate/eliminate.

Ok, well I have never heard of authentic atheist Judaism. That’s a new one to me. God’s chosen people who do not believe in God. Strange thing that.

This doesn’t even make any sense to me.

And what about the missionaries in North America forcing people to go to Indian Schools and making them take Christian names? Were they singling them out too? How many groups do they ‘single out’ before it becomes just a generalized mission as opposed to ‘singling out’ certain groups.

Yes, I understand that. Personifying God is the road to idolatry. I tend to agree with that myself. But then if God is impersonal how does a unified field ‘choose’ a people? The Ain Soph Aur is a beautiful sight but it’s not very personal.

Yes, and would you claim that Muslims were singled out throughout history for conversion by Christianity?

So the Native Americans were singled out also?

So would it be fair to say that Jews, Native Americans, Buddhists, Muslims, and Africans have all been, ‘singled out’, by Christianity for conversion?

102

It certainly does not have the meaning that you now want to pretend that it has.

That you choose to ignore the stated purpose of the Jews for Jesus–the group actually in question–is simply your decision to ignore reality so that you can pick a fight. (You will probabaly fall back on your bit of equivocation, conflating ethnic and religious Jews, while ignoring the fact that if the religion completely disappears, most likely the ethnic group will lack the cohesion to remain extant.)

::: shrug :::

103

Really? Because I thought it meant taking one person or group and setting them apart and treating them differently from how you treat everyone else. What does it mean to you?

This isn’t even an argument it’s just a personal attack. Come back when you have an argument. The stated purpose of Jews for Jesus is:

So what part of that am I ignoring?

104

All the information to which Finn linked, earlier, rather than their publicity blurb as well as the subtext of their own claim to make the messiahship “unavoidable.”

105

That Jews for Jesus exists to specifically convert Jews (and engages in deceptive practices to do so), and that as such, there are Jews who have a pretty big problem with it. Are you having trouble grasping the concept?

106

For those following along, I’ll re-cite/quote some of the issues.

JfJ was founded, and is run and informed by the ideals of evangelical Christians. It seems rather simple to figure out that evangelical Christians are not Jews.
The scumfuck group’s founder, “Moishe Rosen”, is actually named Martin Meyer Rosen. Wonder why he changed his name, eh? He also went to Northeastern Bible College and became a Christian missionary. He was ordained as a Baptist Minister. He earned a Doctor of Divinity Degree from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary. Their membership is, likewise, largely made up of evangelical Christians, as their group is dedicated to spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.

JfJ aims at tricking Jews into believing that religious Christianity is compatible with religious Judaism. They do not, as some of their apologists claim, concern themselves only with culture. They have gone out of their way to subvert the Jewish High Holy days and, perhaps even more disgustingly,the Jewish coming of age ceremonies, the Bar/Bat Mizvah for which they admit, in one breath, that, the religious ceremony is a signal that the child is a Jew and that he’s joining the community of the Jewish faith as someone who is no longer a child, but that…

Then, of course, going on to admit that they aim at subverting the religious ritual in part “because bar mitzvah celebrates the Torah”, ya know, that ‘cultural’ document.

And, of course, they used to have up but have now disappeared a page on “dating” whose contents contained the advice that, quite contrary to respecting Judaism (or Jews for that matter) that a father should forbid his daughter from marrying a Jew due to their status as “unbelievers”.

This from the guys who claim that Jewish High Holy Days and coming of age ceremonies are totally compatible with Christianity… except you need to keep your daughter from marrying them due to the unresolvable gulf between the two faiths.

And, of course, in one of JfJ’s own press releases, its executive director makes the mistake of admitting that, naw, they’re not “messianic Jews”, they’re Christians.

You can also note the full text of this mission statement which, gee whiz, they truncated. Here is the link. Notice anything? There’s a sentence before the whole unavoidable Jesus thing.

107

Nope not at all. I understand it just fine. But that’s not the same as ‘annihilation’.

108

I read his posts, but I still fail to see how it equates to ‘annihilation’.

109
  1. There is currently a Jewish religion
  2. If all the Jews become Evangelical Christians, there will no longer be a Jewish religion
  3. Thus, Judaism will have been annihilated
  4. “Jews for Jesus” aims at converting all Jews to Christianity.
  5. Therefore, JfJ aims at the annihilation of Judaism via conversion.

QED.

110

I hate how Jews and Christians alike are at odds like this. Christians should respect Jews for what they are, which is the original chosen people of God. If Jews want to convert to Christianity willingly, great. If not, who cares. Same goes for conversions from any one religion to another.

The hateful diatribes are just silly.

I happen to believe that God is a forgiving God, and whichever side ends up getting it right, be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam, that there’s a self-correcting measure in place for all peoples of faith to rectify them and grant them salvation.

CHristianity has been particularly horrible to Jews over the millenia (cuz you know, they killed Christ, man! As if it wasn’t preordained!).

This whole thread is just stupid, particularly the OP. And now it’s been completely derailed, too. I thought we were talking about Israel and Palestine, not cults within organized religions.

Finn is OK in my book. For a Jew.
:smiley:

111

So according to this, he is a Reform Jew who converted to Christianity and then wanted to synthesize the two. Yeah and? I am failing to see the dishonesty here. That’s exactly what I thought Jews for Jesus was. He wants to bring the gospel to the Jews, and he was born to a ‘Ben Rosen’ and ‘Rose Baker’. Ben Rosen sounds like a pretty ethnically Jewish name to me. How many non-Jewish Rosens do you know? I mean I admit it could happen but every Rosen I’ve ever met was a Jew. It claims his Mother’s side were reform Jews from Austria.

So he converted to become a Baptist and then wanted to bring the gospel to the Jews. So he formed an organization of Jewish conversos. That is exactly what I thought it was, so where is the deception here?

You think that Christianity and Judaism are incompatible, so you are saying that anyone who believes they are not is actively trying to deceive people rather than having an honest theological disagreement with you?

112

Ok, so? The entire point of Christianity was to bring a a Judaic message to the gentiles. So they want to unify Jews and Christians under one chosen people under the banner of Jesus as the messiah. But if Jew is an ethnicity then it’s not exactly going to annihilate Jews, it will just remove the separation between Judaism and Christianity. If Judaism requires being a people apart from everyone else and not sharing the covenant then yes, it will annihilate Judaism.

It’s sort of like marriage, don’t think of it as losing a daughter, think of it as gaining a son. :wink:

But as I said theologically, I am more inclined to the way you described it, I am not a Christian because I am not sold on Jesus’ messiahship either, I’m just saying.

113

I happen to think that not only are the two religions inexorably intertwined, but that one will eventually define the other and make them one.

There’s no need for coercion, brutality or anything in order for this to happen.

In fact, I’d be happy if a group of Muslims that believe in God as I do (which is a cosmic traveller, mover and shaker, and setter of many tables) figure it out.

In my mind, all peoples are forgiven from erroneousness in their beliefs, from ignorance to faith in “the wrong sect”, provided that they live decent lives and don’t committ crimes against humanity.

114

Now wait a minute, you’re picking on one of my favorite groups, celebrated in that famous cartoon showing a march of religious celebrants holding banners and objects bearing the word “Nothing”, while one observer anxiously asks another, “Is Nothing sacred?”

My favorite image of Jews for Jesus is in the movie Airplane, when Robert Stack is striding determinedly through the airport, brushing aside annoying proselytizers right and left:

“Jews for Jesus?” WHACK!

But…b-but…dammit…:frowning:

115

This is true, and the tangent bores me so I’m not going to continue it.

Let’s get back on topic.

I have to go cash my weekly Mossad check now, but by the time I get back someone better have found out how I’m part of a vast global conspiracy to post on message boards. That or that I’m secretly Israeli pretending to be posting from upstate New York.
I’m not picky.

116

Well yes, in terms of the historical order of brutality proselytizing seems to be the least violent option. It’s weird to me that people aren’t thanking God that those who would seek to change the Jews are resorting to placards and websites rather than ovens and machine guns, but that’s just me.

I agree with you. I believe in one god and I think that Religion is 90% vanity, though that other 10% is something of real value. But ultimately I would like to see a humanity united in a single faith whether that results in the annihilation of Judaism (or Christianity, Buddhism, Islam what have you) as a distinct religion or not. A union of all people as the people of God would certainly spell the end of Judaism, but it would spell the end of Christianity as well, it would spell the end of religion as we know it with it’s constant wars and infighting over theological distinctions that the participants have barely any understanding of. That central wish of Christianity for the universalization of all people under one God is a hope that I share.

117

If this is your real goal, you ought to hate Jews for Jesus like poision. Lying to people in order to win converts isn’t the way to unite humanity - quite the opposite. For every Jew converted there are going to be a hundred or a thousand who are offended by the blatant attempt to carry on the age-old effort at getting Jews to convert - in the past by violence and now by trickery. Jews tend to be allergic to this sort of foolery, given the history.

If you really wish to win converts without lies or trickery, know what to do? Live life in such a way that others admire you. I’ve known some Christians who do that. They would be the last to participate in a scheme like Jews for Jesus.

118

Backfire-backfire achieved.

119

Yeah that’s, er, quite a backfire.
Instead, why don’t you go and uncritically lap up the content of a state-controlled Egyptian paper that makes certain claims about an Haaretz article, report them as gospel, and never have the basic intellectual integrity required to actually check out the Haaretz article in the first place?

I mean, ya know, again.

120

My bolding

This is exactly the same crap spewed by nationalists in my country, Greece. They say Christianity is an integral part of our nation and that foreign groups led by jews are conspiring to disrupt that bond between the greek people and religion and how we are all doomed, yada, yada ,yada.

It is funny how Finnegan now claims that there’s also a christian conspiracy against jews. :stuck_out_tongue: