But having no sex certainly does make one inexperienced, however much theoretical knowledge one might have acquired from books, porn and word-of-mouth.
But that’s part of the debate – the “supervision, control and guidance” part, specifically. The parent is supposed to set forth limits AND to provide guidance as to when/where/how/with whom it is right for the experimentation to happen. And individual parents will occupy a whole range of possible policies on that, from “No Way, No How” all the way to “Wink, nod, here’s some rubbers, have fun”.
As in the case of the originating thread, telling a kid that giving head just to be one of the “cool kids” is the wrong reason for it, that she should not feel obligated into it, IS control and guidance, yet does NOT involve telling her it’s “bad” in and of itself, NOR does it involve acquiescence or surrender of the parental duty of exercising “supervision, control and guidance”. Like I said in the other thread, even if all she gets out of it is becoming more selective and discriminating about what she does when/where/with whom, and the trust to discuss it if she DOES run into real trouble, that’s progress.
Is 13 too young? IMO it would be too young to just go ahead and go for it no holds barred, for most of the population. If you’ve got your head remarkably well put-together, and the social/cultural factors create a positive environment for it, you may be able to make it, but the thing is that if you’re the average 13-y/o, YOU may NOT be the best qualified person to determine if your own head is screwed on straight. So if I am a responsible party in the situation, I’ll play it safe and offer the kid control and guidance until I can trust him/her to make his/her own calls. That may be 15, or it may be 18, or it may be whenever s/he sets out on his/her own, the sooner s/he shows a development of responsibility, the sooner I’ll let go.
Anecdotally, I remember that at 13, in spite of all the vigorous “shadow boxing” practice I was doing near-daily, I would have been paralyzed and freaked out and would have probably gone into panic attack had the chance to put a move on a real girl come along, never mind if SHE put the moves on me… yet I had the knowledge that there WERE female contemporaries willing and able and rarin’ ta go for it. So for me waiting was absolutely less traumatic than rushing in.
Wow… I don’t mean to be insulting, but all I can say is I’ve never met a 13 year old that dumb, either when I was that age or in the years that followed. I’m glad you overcame it.
I hope you realize that this is no less debatable than whether 13 year olds should be allowed to have sex. Unless you can point to an objectively measurable difference between 13 year olds’ and 16 year olds’ ability to drive a car, all you have is an assertion that 13 year olds, on average, lack some vague je ne sais quoi that 16 year olds possess, which is somehow necessary for both driving and sex.
Well, exactly. But I do feel that parents are usually a little late in their estimations, for what I am sure are perfectly normal reasons.
(not really addressed to you, the comment just made me think) I had sex whether my mom wanted me to or not. It was never her decision (thankfully she wasn’t silly enough to think so). She expressed some dismay that I hadn’t told her (she found out through other routes), but even though my mom was very, very far from domineering she never made herself available for such conversations (which is not to say I couldn’t; the cliche about the parent-child sex talk is there for a reason). It made her nervous, like a lot of parents. Like sex is some big SECRET. It isn’t something proper people discuss. Etc. She should not have been surprised that I didn’t come to her for guidance, nor should most parents, since, even if not spoken, it is clear (at least to the young person in question) they are not available for such discussion. You learn it from your friends, from Playboys or stolen porn, from older siblings, from peers that have had sexual encounters, and so on. The exception is not the “13 year-old ready for sexual activity,” it is the parent willing to face the subject like they’d face credit cards or homework.
Sex is pervasive and important in human society. It is the ultimate in interpersonal relationships. More on the guidance, less on the “omg god 13??!!?!eleven”.
But you’re looking at sex from an adult perspective that took years to form, and presumably a bit of sex along the way. That is a terrible error, and quite pervasive here. As adults, we know what sex means to adults, generally. But when we had to become adults. That takes time, life lessons, mistakes that hopefully aren’t serious, and lots of questioning, directly or otherwise. A child is ready for basic math even if she is not ready for calculus. I do not expect a 13 year-old to immediately jump into a lifelong commitment–I expect them to think it, to swear it, several times over about many different people throughout high school until it all sinks in. Then they will have an adult perspective, too; or at least the start of one. The journey always seems easy once you’re at the destination.
elfkin is right on. And I’ll extend the analogy -
Kids may smoke and drink underage whether I want them to or not, whether I discourage it or not. That doesn’t mean I have to approve of it and that I won’t as a parent and as a pediatrician do what is my power to prevent it. In these cases it is illegal for them to do these activities, but some will anyway and they think that they have the maturity to make those choices. And others. I beg to differ. And yes Mr2001 there are plenty of studies documentiing that frontal lobe and execuitive function is just not fully on board yet. Impulsive decisionmaking is something that teens are predisposed to do much more so that adults.
Like JD, I see that my job as a parent is to try to protect and guide my kids until they are adults. And maybe a little bit later. Not to smother, not to dominate, but not to pretend that they are little adults when they are not, either. I think that frequent open discussions and demystificatiion is the best possible protection myself, but I make it clear what I think and what I feel. And I listen to what they think and feel as well.
I suspect that catsix and badmana are closer to being teens than to being the parents of teens. When I was a teenager I knew everything too. I’m older now and know a lot less. I’m a bit wiser now though.
I have to reveal that while I don’t think either boys or girls at 13 should be having sexual relations, I tend to feel more protective of and worried about girls than boys.
I suppose this could be old-fashioned sexist influences, you know, buying into the idea that men are always the sexual aggressors. But I can’t shake it.
It’s not just the fact that pregnancy has more dire consequences for girls, either.
Maybe it’s because I believe girls are at higher risk for low sexual self-esteem, that they are at a higher risk for not feel good about their bodies, that they are more eager to please so they would be more likely to acquiesce when they really don’t want sex, that they are more likely to have their sexual activity turned around on them socially and be labelled “bad” or “slutty”… the list goes on. I guess a lot of these things reflect the way our society is messed up about sex and sexuality, and it’s a lot for girls to deal with at a time when they’re still figuring out why they are.
Considering that the girl in the OP confessed to doing it because she didn’t want to be thought of as “uncool”, would you still think she’s ready and mature enough?
Oops
WHO they are, I meant.
Good point, CrankyAsAnOldMan.
I have a daughter, so the idea that some little shit is going to try to pressure her into doing something like this when she’s WAY too young is a real fear.
I don’t have a son, so I can only imagine that I’d be mortified and there’d be hell to pay if I ever found out he pressured a girl into that.
It’d be interesting to hear perspectives from people who are raising boys, especially if they’re already teenagers.
Man. I’m 22, and I still don’t think I’m ready for sex. Well, I suppose I’m ready for sex, but I’m a girl, and I’m still dealing with all of the issues mentioned above: low body-image-related self-esteem, wondering if I’m being manipulated, using sexual attractiveness as a bar for my self-worth, manipulating guys for my own satisfaction, confusing a one-nighter with more genuine affection, giving out blowjobs and not being aggressive enough to make the lazy ones reciprocate, etc. etc. etc. No WAY could I have dealt with all this shit at 13. Sometimes I wonder if I’m mature enough to handle it NOW, and I was an extremely responsible 13 yo with a 4.0 gpa and eventually going off to college two years early.
It’s hard to predict who can navigate these pitfalls, especially since they rely on very personal, private concerns about the way you see yourself in relation to others. You can seem confident as hell but when he’s pulling up his pants and you’re alone in bed and everything is rushing through your head, that’s the litmus test. And it’s too bad that it’s only clearest afterwards, and many times it’s hard to predict your own reaction let alone someone else’s- let alone someone so young.
I guess I’m in the “13 is too young” camp, b/c it’s too hard to differentiate sex itself from everything that comes with it. I’m not so sure that the average 13 yo girl is confident enough to have sex on her own terms, rather than the terms that her expectations or peers are setting.
That’s a pretty thinly disguised insult.
My position is not based on my current age. My position is based on my memory of who I was a good deal of years ago.
Three older boys and one younger girl. 19 yo down to 3 1/2. I hope my boys have got the message that they better not be pricks. My eldest seems to me be a caring sensitive and ethical man. I do not know his sexual activity nor do I want to. But I have every reason to believe that he is the kind of man who is/will be as concerned about his potential partner’s needs and wants, including the need to take it at a speed that feels right to her, as he is about his own needs, to the point that meeting her needs would be one of his needs.
The next ones are works in progress. I hope they develop the same sense of ethics that the oldest seems to have. The girl will, someday, have a different set of pressures than the boys. To ignore that is to deny the natures of our biology and our society.
This is quite normal by world standards. I’ve never had sex with a 13 year old female. However, there are numerous countries where I could easily find a 13 year old bride. For much of Earth, adult = puberty.
That’s why I think this whole society bit I’ve been yammering about matters.
Yup, I’ve heard that before. In fact, I hear it every time I request some evidence for claims about teenagers’ capacity for making these decisions, even though it’s not really an answer.
Suppose I asked you if rats could navigate mazes, and you pointed me to a stack of studies showing that rats don’t have the same cognitive ability as humans. That wouldn’t prove that rats can’t solve mazes, because you still haven’t shown that human cognitive ability is necessary for performing that task. The rat’s brain might be perfectly capable of solving a maze, even though it isn’t capable of composing a symphony or designing an aircraft carrier.
Likewise, it has not been shown that an adult brain, or a lack of impulsive decision making, is necessary for having sex (or driving, for that matter). The teenage brain might be–and I contend that it is–perfectly capable of handling interpersonal relationships, taking precautions against pregnancy and disease, and doing everything else necessary for safely participating in sex, even though it is not the same as an adult brain.
So Mr2001, you are arguing that in the context of extremely high drives, that immaturity of the parts of the brain related long term planning and weighing risk vs reward and impulse control, are as inconsequential to decisions about sex with its potential life long costs and rewards, as aircraft design skills are to rat maze solving ability?!?
Obviously they are instead the relevant skill set needed to navigate sexuality. More sex does not make one experienced in these sorts of decisions, more maturity does.
Like catsix I was having sex at 13, oral and otherwise. Was I able to distinguish between sex and emotional attachment? Yes. As, I think, were my partners. I am nowhere near a teenager now, at 36, but still do not see anything wrong with that behaviour. Kids are kids and horny is horny. I did practise safer-sex, as did a goodish number of the people I knew.
I suspect that in some way we are encouraging teenagers to think of sex as some sort of dirty thing, or something that ought only exist when one is in love. Bullshit on both. Why not say “well it is pleasurable and can be used for recreational fun, just make sure you practise safer-sex”.
What harm can it do? Really
And rather like the fact that there are some adults who are much more capable of making wise and healthy decisions for themselves than others, there are teens who are capable of making much more wise and healthy decisions for themselves than other teens. I don’t think you or I are arguing that all 13 year-olds have the capability to make healthy decisions about sex, but that there are 13 year-olds who are, so age is not an automatic disqualifier for the ability to make a good decision.
I think the other thing that we’re on the same page about is that for a 13 year-old who is capable of making such healthy decisions based upon knowledge, that the ‘wise and healthy decision’ is not a constant. It’s more of a variable for which each one of these teens will find their own answer. Some choose to wait, some do not wait. It’s not automatically correct that choosing not to wait is the ‘wrong’ decision.
I am also no longer a teenager, and I still agree with you: there are teens who are quite capable of making their own decisions about sex. I think it’s disingenuous for others to say to folks like you and me that our position on this topic must be based on being ‘closer to being teens than to being the parents of teens,’ as DSeid said.
It’s not conducive to a constructive debate that someone who believes all younger teens incapable of making good decisions about sex to simply dismiss the opposing viewpoint as coming from someone who’s still a kid. I am guessing you threw your age in to make that point?
I agree with you here also. I think that, on the first point, teaching teenagers to believe sex is a dirty or bad thing really does them a disservice in attempting to instill a healthy attitude toward sexual relations, even those in the distant future of their lives. If the foundation is fucked up, the house built on it will be too.
I’ve also seen that the people I know who tend to have the most emotional difficulty with sex, those who have the most regrets, are those who believe that sex is inseparably tied to love. On the other hand, I have the belief that sex is something that, although it can and often does happen between people who love each other, it is not tied to love, better because of love, or something that should only exist between people who are in love. I don’t know how I came to that belief, because my family’s pressure was certainly the opposite, but I do believe it’s saved me a lot of grief and heartache, and cost me nothing.
eris, I agree with you. I’d rather my son and daughter have their first emotional, sexually, heartbreak (which is different from the first non-sexual heartbreak) when I’m around to pick up the pieces and not when they are away at college. But I also hope it doesn’t happen when they are still in Junior High. Big difference between 13 and 18. (or even 13 and 15).
And there are 13 year olds that are ready for sex, manage the consequences, have a mature self esteem and respect for themselves and their partners. I think they are rare. I think there are more 13 year olds ready for sex who “sort of” manage the consequences, have an immature self esteem and a limited understanding of mature respect - but for whom early sex does no long term harm for themselves or their partners (i.e. we all do stupid things when we are young, most of us get over it). There are a few 13 year olds (and I’d think its more than the first group but less than the second), for whom sex at an early age is either a sign that something has already happened that is wrong (really dismal self esteem, abuse, etc.) that they are trying to fix through sex when they need a therapist or that sex at a young age will be a lifechanging thing that they never recover from (teenage pregnancy, a reputation as a slut they never shake, STDs, increased possibility of date rape (no data, just my suspicion from the “hey, you put out for someone else” mentality I’ve had from some of my “less gentlemanlike” dates), etc.)