Are you attempting to troll, Astorian?
That last post was mine.
For more on the Catholic Church’s position on sex, try John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. The language is kinda thick, but it basically illustrates that the Church holds sex (when done properly and not abusively, natch) in the highest esteem.
I think sex can be sacred, but often is not. If I get a BJ from some woman I met in a bar, or a prostitute, and I never take the time to even memorize her name, then we can’t say that was sacred. Not that it would be a bad thing…
Sex is a very natural thing. But, as astorian pointed out, so are a lot of things that may feel good to us at the moment but could be gross to someone else who may inadvertantly see us doing it. or find out via some other sense
I whole-heartedly support the ‘time and place’ position. Not that sex has to take place in the bedroom. My GF and I did it outside next to a beautiful lake, in front of God and nature. But we made sure there were no other humans who could see it. Part of that is modesty, part if that is courtesy. People who just start having sex in a public place, with others there (and not in a ‘sex club’), are a bit short on modesty AND courtesy.
There are some places where certain activites are inappropriate, even if OK somewhere else. Joyful conversation and laughter is a beautiful thing, but not in a library. There, it’s damn rude. A hearty meal well enjoyed is a wonderful thing . But it is not OK to enjoy it in court. Some places are built for specific activites where a certain amount of decorum is required.
Er, cite? Is there really a commandment “Thou shalt not get it on in my house, even when the service is really, really boring.” If there isn’t, why the commotion?
Hi, robertliquori -
Believe it or not, the cite is Exodus 20:8.
Regards,
Shodan
I agree with this position as well. There is a time and place for all activities, and a Catholic Church is certainly not the appropriate place to have sex.
Is it sacrilagious? My personal belief is that it is not. Is it rude and jerkish to other church-going members? Yes it would be, and for that reason, and that reason alone, I would not encourage such a course of action.
Shodan, I just checked your cite and I don’t think that it applies. It does say that the Sabbath is Holy and should be kept that way, but it does not mention sex at all. It says that one should not work on that day, but I don’t know too many people who consider sex to be work. (excluding prostitutes…though that is covered by the “that I know” clause.)
I’m a Methodist Christian and I’d not have sex in a church. I’d be a little offended if someone I knew did, but it’s a matter of propriety and is on their conscience and not mine.
Oh, for pity’s sake.
Are you seriously suggesting that every moral rule must be spelled out for people in unmistakeable detail, if the Biblical commands have any validity? I think most people have more common sense than that.
astorian, can you point out to me exactly which Wiccans in this thread denied that a couple having sex in a Catholic church was inappropriate? Or, in fact, can you point me to any Wiccans anywhere who did so?
What’s that?
You can’t, because none of them did, and you were just expressing your own bigotry towards them?
OK, thanks. That’s all I wanted to know.
What faith do you follow?
None, I am a recovering Catholic. Agnostic is probably the right word for me.
Would you consider sex in a place of worship disrespectful?
I would not presume to answer about other peoples places of worship, but if we take the example of a regular christian chruch yep. See below.
Is having sex in a place of worship disrespectful more towards God or more towards the people worshipping?
Primarily towards the people who worship there. This is regardless of whether they are there at the time or not. Knowing that the majority of people who have this as their place of worship would be offended by the idea of my having sex there would be enough to prevent me from doing so.
To a more or less equal extent I would see it as disrespectful towards god. As somone else mentioned, I would find it as disrespectful as listening to a walkman, or eating a sandwich. This buildings purpose is for you to come and spend some time “talking to god” or whatever way you want to put it. Your concentration should only be focussed on your worship or you might as well go home. Same goes for people sitting at mass answering by rote and thinking about how they are going to get past the end of level boss in Tekken, or what they are going to prepare for dinner tomorrow.
*Would you consider the act of sex itself sacred? *
Not the act itself, no. In context perhaps, but define sacred first.
*Would you say that having sex in a place of worship desecrates it? Why? *
Again, define desecrate. I think it is disrespectful to all involved, especially since its so unneccessary, you can always go somewhere else. Desecrate sounds a little on the strong side tho, but I would consider, say, churches where the clergy had abused children there to be desecrated.
Iteki
What faith do you follow?
None, I am a recovering Catholic. Agnostic is probably the right word for me.
Would you consider sex in a place of worship disrespectful?
I would not presume to answer about other peoples places of worship, but if we take the example of a regular christian chruch yep. See below.
Is having sex in a place of worship disrespectful more towards God or more towards the people worshipping?
Primarily towards the people who worship there. This is regardless of whether they are there at the time or not. Knowing that the majority of people who have this as their place of worship would be offended by the idea of my having sex there would be enough to prevent me from doing so.
To a more or less equal extent I would see it as disrespectful towards god. As somone else mentioned, I would find it as disrespectful as listening to a walkman, or eating a sandwich. This buildings purpose is for you to come and spend some time “talking to god” or whatever way you want to put it. Your concentration should only be focussed on your worship or you might as well go home. Same goes for people sitting at mass answering by rote and thinking about how they are going to get past the end of level boss in Tekken, or what they are going to prepare for dinner tomorrow.
*Would you consider the act of sex itself sacred? *
Not the act itself, no. In context perhaps, but define sacred first.
*Would you say that having sex in a place of worship desecrates it? Why? *
Again, define desecrate. I think it is disrespectful to all involved, especially since its so unneccessary, you can always go somewhere else. Desecrate sounds a little on the strong side tho, but I would consider, say, churches where the clergy had abused children there to be desecrated.
Iteki
I’ll answer but first allow me to point out the probably obvious: Not all people (even most people?) agree with your personal belief that sex itself is [always? usually?] sacred.
What faith do you follow?
Middle-of-the-road Methodist. Yer garden-variety American Protestant.
Would you consider sex in a place of worship disrespectful?
Well, what are we talking about – a quickie in the back stall of the women’s room, or are you rolling around in the sanctuary? I do not consider every space within a church to be equally sacred – what, the sacred mop closet? 
Is having sex in a place of worship disrespectful more towards God or more towards the people worshipping?
People. They’re the ones who won’t like it, and who will find it disrespectful. I think God reads the hearts of us all, and knows disrespect of Him when He sees it, regardless of location. I also think He probably doesn’t care a lot about what goes on in the houses of worship that people set up in His name. They are houses of humanity, not of God, though they are dedicated to God’s work and in God’s name. In other words, on a cosmic level, it’s just a building.
Would you consider the act of sex itself sacred?
Depends. Do the participants think it is sacred? Or is it just hot monkey lovin’? (Not to say sex can’t be both.) In other words, I disagree with the premise that sex is in all cases (or even usually) sacred.
If so, would it bother you if you found out that fellow members of the religious organization you belong to have in fact had sex in the place you worship(let’s assume in this case that it was in a bathroom)? Why?
In the bathroom? No. I’d probably be kind of amused by it, and also wonder, “What kind of thrill do you suppose they’re getting out of shagging in the church john?” It would bother me if I found out that congregants were having sex in the sanctuary, since I know (and they know) that the sanctuary is a sacred space, and my faith does not generally ascribe to the idea that sex is automatically a sacred act – or, for that matter, an act to be done in a public space. So I would assume they knew enough about the church and the faith to know they had done a disrespectful thing.
If not, why would you consider sex as less than sacred?
Why should I consider it sacred in all cases? I don’t see the argument that it must be. Very few things are truly sacred, and the sacred nature of many acts (from bowing your head to having a sip of wine) will depend on context and intent.
Would you say that having sex in a place of worship desecrates it? Why?
Not unless the participants are shagging on the altar. And then I would consider it an attempted desecration, but I don’t think it would actually desecrate the space.
It’s a long story, and kind of inappropriate to this thread, and is at least in part Polycarp’s fault.
You could email me if you want more details.
astorian - you did notice the part where I said that sex involving nonconsensual parties was not okay, right? (Not that I’m Wiccan, either, but thought I’d better clarify.)
Hi, My Darn Snake Legs -
The cite refers to the Sabbath being kept holy. That is to say, some things are reserved only for the worship of God. There is nothing sinful about working, but it is wrong to do so on a day which is reserved for other purposes - worship of God, family time, relaxation, and so forth.
Same for the other things reserved for the worship of God. There is nothing sinful about reading newspapers, but it is wrong to do so during divine worship, because that time is reserved for other purposes.
In the same way, having sex in church is wrong, not because sex is wrong, but because it is a violation of boundaries. The house of God is reserved for His worship and service, not for reading newspapers, sex, or what have you.
Regards,
Shodan
Do you consider the Road Runner to be the embodiment of evil, and the Acme company to be his secret servant?
No; but my thesis on Wile E., Road Runner and Bugs all being facets of the trickster personality is way too long to post here.
Anyway, the Acme company, IIRC, is run by Roadrunners.
What faith do you follow?
None
Would you consider sex in a place of worship disrespectful?
Yes, the shock value thing is lame.
Is having sex in a place of worship disrespectful more towards God or more towards the people worshipping?
The people. God will get over it.
Would you consider the act of sex itself sacred?
NO!
Why would you consider sex as less than sacred?
It’s too natural, and imho, necessary.
Would you say that having sex in a place of worship desecrates it? Why?
It doesn’t desercate it, but doing it in the place of worship just to “say in your face” to the believers is rude and inconsiderate.
RobertLiguori, in response to your request for a cite, I hope you find the following helpful.
Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy all discuss in much detail the concept of ceremonially clean and unclean. They cover worship requirements and marital relationships, in addition to many other items such as foods, animals, dead bodies, and various diseases. For a couple of specifics, please note these verses.
Leviticus 15:18; this verse states that after having sex a man and woman are considered unclean. They must wash themselves and wait until evening (the start of the next day in their reckoning) before they will be clean again.
Exodus 19; this chapter discusses Israel’s preparations before Mt. Sinai to be ready to hear God speak to them directly. In verse 10, Moses instructs the people to consecrate and cleanse themselves, prior to coming before God. In verse 15, Moses specifically mentions that they must abstain from having sexual relations before presenting themselves to God.
Astorian, if you could provide some cites for any Wiccans making those claims, I’d love to see them.
I recommend you read some material that contains some factual information about Wiccans and their beliefs. Try Margot Adler’s *Drawing Down the Moon * (1986) or Ronald Hutton’s Triumph of the Moon (1998). Both are scholarly works and well regarded by academics in that field.