The same exact thing can be said for women – why should we find incels attractive, when they talk about us like we’re nothing more than pieces of meat who exist soley for his pleasure? Seriously, your explanations are the kind thing a sociopath would come up with.
Did I ever say that? That doesn’t even work. If attractive women started finding “incels” attractive, by definition they would leave traditionally attractive men lonely. If somehow some virus changed every woman’s preferences such that previously unattractive men are now what they want, it would just create a new batch of incels.
Zero sum game and one side is unbalanced.
So, well, since we don’t have the technology to make decent sex robots, there’s prostitution. That obviously mitigates the problem because each prostitute can satisfy significantly more than 1 man. If we made it legal and more attractive, more women would be prostitutes and would voluntarily be serving the same purpose as those previously mentioned robots. Or we could societally adapt a tradition where women date multiple men, but that would take a long time.
Or maybe you find every one of the proposals I just made morally abhorrent. That’s fine, I have doubts myself, but don’t kid yourself. People “changing their attitude” isn’t going to accomplish jack shit. The only thing that actually mitigates the problem is (1) a greater supply of women (2) some mechanism that increases utilization of that supply (3) a substitute for women.
Maybe you don’t agree with any of these ‘solutions’, but if you don’t have anything productive to suggest, your opinion is just a waste of time.
How will your simple math account for women who have no interest in attractive men, but rather attractive women? You can’t force a science on this, friend, it doesn’t work b/c above all Incel isn’t a scientifically legitimate diagnosis. It’s happy-to-be-miserable losers w/ an over-inflated sense of self who choose to remain losing if they can’t have all the winnings there are to win - b/c they deserve them, godammit!
It’s literally a drop in the bucket. Not much of a “gotcha!” when you’re talking about 1-2% of the population. Also it only affects the ratio if there are more exclusively gay women than exclusively gay men.
I have something productive to suggest! Men who consider themselves Incels get the fuck over it instead of making it someone else’s problem that they’re too good for the women who might have them. Meds, therapy, fat camp - I don’t care; but they’ve been catered to all their lives and they need step away from their immaturity and into the sunlight.
Or they can just go to their private message boards and whine. And book vacations to Thailand. That’s all most of them do. Yeah, sure, once in a blue moon one of them commits a crime, but almost any group of people has a few criminals.
And like people have been saying all thread, fat camp or whatever doesn’t actually fix the problem if everyone does it.
I haven’t got to the morals, yet; I’m still working on the math. Are the number of available women so much lower than the number of available men that it makes for a significant shortage (mathematically speaking, only)? I’m sure everybody would like to find a partner who’s gorgeous, smart, funny, and rich. Everybody wants a catch, but there aren’t enough catches to go around. But it’s nothing to do with there being too many men and not enough women.
If everyone did it, then it wouldn’t matter. But the truth is, not everyone does it.
I think the solution, if there is one, is more complicated than that, but don’t dismiss an idea because it wouldn’t work in a world that doesn’t exist.
[quote=“Robot_Arm, post:327, topic:817783”]
I haven’t got to the morals, yet; I’m still working on the math. Are the number of available women so much lower than the number of available men that it makes for a significant shortage (mathematically speaking, only)? /QUOTE]
I think so. The cause is 2 main factors :
A. No ww2 to kill a quarter million men, taking them off the market
B. Chain fast food or maybe it’s mass packaged food. Something in the food supply (possibly multiple causes) is poisoning all of America. It’s causing obesity. A car culture and no one walking doesn’t help but the evidence vs other countries suggests the cause is in the food. It might be trans fats, limitless available carbs, or corn syrup, or food coloring or something else unknown. Or probably multiple factors.
Anyways female beauty is hugely dependent on bmi and here we are. Contract a 1970s beach photo to today. Notice anything different?
Why do you take World War II as the baseline for what the correct numbers of men and women should be? Yes, a lot of men were killed in war during the early-1940s; I don’t see how that remotely applies to things now.
Do those things affect men and women differently? Or to use your own logic, if I get fat and everybody else gets fat along with me, it doesn’t make any difference.
a. I only bring up ww2 as a specific example of a market shift.
b. Doesn’t work that way. A man who’s fat still wants a skinny female mate. Yeah it’s hypocritical but it’s just how nature decided to wire things up. Or how we all got programmed from magazines. Or something.
There’s a lot here - condescension, pseudoscience, resentment, entitlement, lack of empathy, negativity, immaturity, etc. - for anyone to put up with, never mind the ideal woman most incels have in mind. Until one is in the mindset of being able to offer another person something besides one’s dick, the expectation of a relationship isn’t reasonable. It’s just sexual gratification. That is not society’s problem.
I think the solution is a fairly simple one: it’s try to be the sort of person that another person would value. Just that.
Right. And remember next recession when 30 percent of the population is unemployed - just keep a positive attitude when you go to the job interview. They’ll hire you over the other 100 people applying no sweat!
I’ll suggest that since the vast majority of conventionally unattractive/non-wealthy men do not become incels, then conventionally unattractive/non-wealthy men can be socialized to reject such hateful and misogynistic attitudes. If our society rejects this kind of misogyny (and other bigotries, for that matter) as strongly as it does, say, pedophilia, then very, very few individuals would be willing to identify as members of a hateful ideology like incels, and join online boards and such that do little more than stir up these hatreds.
This would make sense if we were living in the Mad Max universe where fertile women were so rare as to be a commodity worth fighting over. We don’t. Statistically speaking, just over 1% of men at 40 are virgins, and about 0.3% of women are in the same camp. So things are really not that bad. You don’t need to have much of a competitive edge to get a partner - you need to not have the worst luck or serious physical/mental defects. Most of these problems are things that can be worked on. Your analogy is bad.
It’s not an interview, you’re not competing against other applicants, and the person isn’t selecting on the basis of qualifications and experience. Apart from that it’s an OK analogy, if you want to really put a whole lot of pressure on yourself to “get” the “position” by misunderstanding the whole nature of the process.
The ridiculous assumption that incels make is that nothing matters in a partner other than physical appearance, probably because physical appearance is all that matters to them. However, very few people in society are actually so shallow. And it doesn’t make sense even in terms of their crude evolutionary theory.
What the vast majority of women want (and the women on the board can correct me if I’m wrong) is firstly someone with a LIFE. Someone who doesn’t spend all his time sitting in his bedroom jerking off to porn and whining about how unfair the world is.
Someone who has a reasonable job and reasonable prospects, who has real-life (not online) friends, and real-life interests. Someone who is warm, friendly, sociable, pleasant to be with, has a sense of humour, and who treats them with respect and affection.
Even in the over-simplistic evolutionary psych model that incels seem to use, this is what makes a good mate, a good father, a good life partner. Whether he has a jutting jawline or whatever, is totally trivial compared to this.
Okay, sure, but who does that skinny female want for her mate? That’s just as much a part of the equation as wondering what woman a man wants.
If you accept that dating is a meritocracy (of sorts), then each person is selecting on the basis of qualifications. They just don’t issue a printed list of what those qualifications are.
The job analogy still fails. Absent some big demographic shift, like a war, large numbers of women don’t become unavailable, like the number of jobs in a fluctuating economy. And there’s no reason to think of women as the employers and men as the applicants. Both genders are in an equal state of looking for a desirable partner; it’s not like an employer/employee relationship.
What I’ve seen overwhelmingly in this thread are attitudes like yours. “Get the fuck over it.” Pure derision and contempt, absolutely no attempt to empathize with Incels or acknowledge their suffering as valid. The thing is, mockery is not going to make them go away or change their attitude. They already feel like the world is lined up against them. This will only make them double down on their beliefs and retreat further into their echochambers.
“Pure derision and contempt” seems like a pretty good distillation of the views of incels towards women and non-incel men.
Loneliness doesn’t lead to incel-ism. Sexual frustration doesn’t lead to incel-ism. Almost every human experiences those feelings at some point in their lives. What leads to incel-ism is hatred – misogynistic and otherwise – and the dehumanization of women.
Reaching out to incels to try and gently lead them “towards the light” is fine. So is mockery. So is harsh criticism.
Incels aren’t the victims of anyone but themselves.