There is an office of about 30 people. 90% are women. One guy in his late 30’s early 40’s has a reputation for being a overt flirt. This flirting has included bringing flowers or chocolates to some women, kissing another in her late 50’s and most recently sitting close to a woman (who is in a relationship) at an office Christmas party, placing his hand on her knee and leaning in while explaining how he has peaked in grade 6. She happens to be wearing a dress. He then proceeds to show her an image on his phone of “his” knee X-ray. It features a man from ribs to knees and clearly displays a penis. This all done in front of her boyfriend. According to a number of women, his remarks are often sexual in nature. Another recent incident follows a seminar in respecting personal space. A woman points out that personal space can also be culturally different. He proceeds to stand inches from her and asks “how close is your personal space?”
The women seem to have come to accept his behaviour and simply dismiss it a flirting.
Does anyone else consider these behaviours inappropriate?
I figure if he would not behave this way with his boss’s wife, or even his boss, then he should show the same courtesy to the rest of his co-workers. Respect a professional distance.
It can be very stressful to register a complaint against someone in the workplace. Even when people are inclined to be sympathetic towards you, there is still fall-out and hassle to deal with.
I often overhear comments from coworkers that aren’t directed at me but that still make me feel uncomfortable. But I don’t say anything because 1) I don’t want to be the one who gets someone else in trouble 2) I don’t want to blow something small out of proportion, and 3) sometimes off-color jokes are funny. I have laughed at my fair share, and I’ve told a few as well. I don’t want someone accusing me of being offensive as payback for getting them in trouble.
I feel pressure in my workplace to be “cool” when I’m around all the guys and their jokes go in a certain direction. I have two male coworkers who say things about me on a regular basis, and sometimes I just want to kick them in the nads or tell them to STFU. But I’m already “not one of the guys” as it is. I really don’t want to give anyone another reason to say “she doesn’t fit in with the culture”.
Do I consider it inappropriate? Sure! But whistle-blowers get screwed so much I usually put it down with the shirkers, constant screw-ups, borderline crooks and everyone else and let it be managements problem. At a certain point I’ll stick my neck out but its not my first plan or reaction.
I once worked at a small company that had two co-owners. One of them was very handsy and familiar. A lot of the stuff he did bordered on sexual harassment, or you could look at it that way. For instance, if someone was sitting hunched over a typewriter or computer he might come up and suggest that he gave really good back rubs (and he DID give really, really good back rubs). He would make this suggestion more often to female employees than male, but a guy could still get a back rub if he needed it.
He also made silly comments about spending the weekend in [name some Podunk town]. They were jokes. Obvious jokes.
The thing is, if you didn’t want a back rub, and you didn’t want to hear some stupid sexist joke, you could just tell him to get his hands off you and go fuck off. This wouldn’t get you fired. It wouldn’t even get you in his bad graces. Well, maybe eventually, but the thing is it would only happen once.
So every once in awhile we would get some new person who would think this was sexual harassment and why did we allow it? Well, because (1) he was the co-owner, and (2) he was good-natured.
Now I could see how this made some people uncomfortable. On the other hand, if saying “stop it” also made people uncomfortable that was kind of their problem.
Short answer: It’s a lot more acceptable if the one doing the “harassing” is the owner, and most people like him. It’s a lot less acceptable if the harasser is creepy and has no power.
I speak as a woman who has worked in male dominated hyper-masculine environments for decades. I could tell you some real stories. Anyway…
The OP described behaviors of a man in his workplace.
Chocolates, no SH
Kiss on the cheek of an older woman, if it’s acceptable to her, probably not SH
Kiss on the lips of a woman, even if acceptable to the woman is not acceptable in my workplace. It’s considered creating an environment of favoritism. In some industries (entertainment) this may be acceptable .
The picture with the dick. Full blown SH
The personal space issue, borderline SH. It could be actual inquiry but the man’s past history of being a jackass colors the interpretation of his questions. I’d vote for SH
If you’re hearing this discussed by the women in the office, they’re putting up with it probably because they don’t see the company supporting them at all.
I notice that the descriptions start with kissing on the cheek to sitting close, to asking about personal space. If that is indeed the sequence of events, he may be working his way up to frottage. This is a criminal offense. The man will find excuses to rub his front up against women (as in squeezing behind them). No one should tolerate this.
My experience with Sexual Harassment is that in many environments if the women tell the guy to back off, they will do so. However, if the women feel that the man will harm them for standing up for themselves, they should follow their gut instincts.
My experience is that filling a formal complaint is non-productive. I took care of all my issues on my own, sometimes using my male co-workers for as conspirators to change the harasser’s behavior, but mostly just verbal smack downs or laughing at my harasser. No one ever crossed me twice.
I love the intelligent responses. Thank you. Also, I’ve neglected to mention a couple of things on purpose:
this situation is at my girlfriends workplace.
I’m the boyfriend sitting nearby when Fletcher the lecher placed his hand on her knee, just above the knee actually, and showing the penis picture. The hand lingered. It was not a brief touch.
I’ve only spoken to my girlfriend on the subject as its her workplace. Which means it’s not my place to pipe up.
I’ve been made to understand Fletcher’s (obviously not his real name) behavior was not as direct when he started. It seems to have degraded. A progression to more pronounced distasteful behavior.
-I mentioned to my girlfriend that this guy needs to conduct himself in the same way he would with his male boss.
-the picture of the penis was presented to my girlfriend after he had his hand on her knee. He gave her his phone with the image, she then handed it to me. I was offended by his behavior but handed it back to him saying “give me the name of the doctor, I could use an enhancement”. He left the table shortly after.
-I refrained from saying “get the paws off” because that behavior is just as inappropriate in the context of a work related function. It would have been emberrasing to my girlfriend and created an uncomfortable atmosphere at our table.
I trust my girlfriend to handle future matters. Not my place to interfere, but it is to express my dislike of disrespectful behavior to her. Not to her boss.
Thank you especially Marion and Hilarity.
I’m still floored that women accept this kind of antiquated behavior. Women have been subjected to this for ages, it will never change if it keeps getting dismissed as “just the way it is”.
Marion
The events follow a timeline like this
Flirting
Chocolates and flowers
More suggestive talk
Sexually innappropriate comments
Touching and presenting pornigraphic material
Standing inches away from my girlfriend face to face
What’s next?
Vinyl, I agree. I really thought this form of conduct withered away in the 70’s. Nobody should ever have to accept this kind of garbage as normal.
Sounds like not so much sexual harassment as a full blown cuck job.
I know you didn’t want to make a scene but I wouldn’t be shocked if Fletcher got a turgid rise out perving on your girlfriend while you just sat there and did nothing.
Tuxie
I figured the same thing. I decided though that based on his behaviour and apparent need to be the centre of attention, me commenting would be a bigger get off for him. I think he’d have enjoyed getting a visible rise out of me. He strikes me as a low self esteem/need for attention type. Very juvenile. No wonder he isn’t married. My lack of action and follow up adult conversation with my girlfriend resulted in my stock going up with her.
He does something in front of me again though and he will get:
“I expect you to conduct yourself with my girlfriend with the same courtesy you would afford your boss’s wife. If you wouldn’t behave like that to her, then don’t behave like that to -----. Maintain a professional distance. I also expect to never have this conversation again”
While this isn’t your problem, the message that would send him is “Back off this woman as she has a man to protect her,” thus heavily implying that what he’s doing is OK as far as women who don’t have a husband/BF to step in.
Your GF should document everything inappropriate that he does to her.
Funny you mention this. This very subject came up between my girlfriend and myself. She said I can’t be responsible for everyone. Nor can she. She intends to handle things knowing full well how disgusting I find his behaviour. All we can do is make sure she is safe. Mind you I don’t want this to happen to others. Not at all. My girlfriend did mention that she is sure someone will take offence to the behaviour and call him on it as sexual harassment.
As far as documenting things, she doesn’t seem concerned. I however am doing just that. Documenting everything I’m aware of as it pertains to my girlfriend. Including the offending X-ray image.
I’ve done a number of sexual harassment cases, usually on the side of the plaintiff. Bringing this kind of lawsuit is unbearably stressful for the plaintiff. It makes them a pariah at work if they don’t quit, and hard to find employment if they leave. Judges and arbitrators could care less, and getting to a jury takes years. I don’t recommend it.
Stone, very interesting input. Thank you. I’m not looking to crucify anyone, I just want this behaviour to stop. It’s not acceptable. A safe work environment isn’t expecting to much. Just because I do not like the guy at all doesn’t mean I want to ruin anyone, or affect my girlfriends career adversely. I am however not taking any chances and making sure I document anything that violates human rights laws here.
These ares some of the criteria. Including but not limited to:
sexual remarks CHECK
“jokes” with sexual overtones CHECK
a sexual advance or invitation
displaying offensive pictures or photographs CHECK
threats
leering
physical contact like touching, patting, pinching or brushing against CHECK
sexual and physical assault.
That’s all I can do. That and trust my girlfriend will translate my objection toward any offending behaviours on his part. I trust her implicitly. She know I don’t consider these behaviours harmless flirting. They cross the line. Human rights and I appear to be in agreement. That’s all I can do. Anything else on my part would be just as inappropriate.
I can honestly see why women are afraid to report these things. It’s just as uncomfortable thinking about it and admitting it has happened as it is experiencing it.
Exactly. That is how we are tackling the situation. Regardless, I’m documenting things as a precaution. It’s her career, her situation, not mine. All I can do is voice my opinion and support whatever she chooses to do or not do. From what I understand, someone else is more likely to formally object based on his sexual remarks. This guy clearly just doesn’t get it.
If and when someone makes a SH complaint, the perceived complicity of his behavior by those who did nothing, including the women he has harassed, will work in his favor. Yes, this can be taken as blaming the victim, and quite right about it. But often that’s how SH cases get decided in favor of the harasser.
She has expressed no interest in documenting events. She plans to handle things should (and I expect it to) transpire. She is fully capable of dealing with this. I had asked her if he has ever touched her like that before and she said no. One thing that does and me was why she did not remove his had or ask him to remove it. That and suggest the x-Ray picture was not acceptable. I suspect it’s as it is in many cases like these, not wanting to respond to something a person finds shocking.
I trust her to handle things accordingly. She is smart.
I think what I’m really after is validation that I personally responded in a propper fashion. I don’t think displaying brutish behavior should have been productive. I don’t like having to bite my tongue though. But, it was in her best interest. Was I wrong? Should I have handled it by saying “Oi! Watch the hands there!” Or “you touch your Mom like that? Then don’t do it to my girlfriend”. I like to think I did the more adult thing.
Duckster
Lack of objection seems like compliance. Look at the CBC case going on. It’s sad really. Women (and men for that matter) subjected to these behaviors are afraid to speak up much less report the offenses. People are afraid to talk about it. It’s like its personally humiliating to admit. Which is wrong. A victim is a victim.