The thing is, if it DOES ever come down to a HR thing, documentation is everything. She really ought to document.
That being said, yes, these things are way more complicated than it would seem from the outside.
Guy needs to be fired for the good of the company. Sooner or later, company will be sued. Someone may be documenting it now.
You may be called as a witness.
Best for all concerned if one of the ladies dresses him down in public. Loudly. In the manner of 'Keep your slimy ass away from me, you perv!"
That’s what I figure. I know it’s less important if not irrelevant that I’m doing it. I’m quietly doing so as well because I don’t want her thinking I’m obsessing with this. I’m just going to quietly keep a record of events. I want her safe. I also think the details are vital should events ever develop further and I sure hope they do not. As I said before, she suspects someone will voice offense in a more formal capacity at some time.
Should she ever ask if I remember the timeline and details, then I will let her know. I won’t post the image of the xray here, but I will post a link to the image for those curious
To some people, these things might be funny in a boozer with guy friends. But not at work. Not with women.
Typo
I’d love to see the guy feel the humiliation of a public dress down. However, the consensus is this behavior is just “overt flirting”. A few women that have spoken about him to me roll their eyes when mentioning him and simply dismiss the behavior. I honestly don’t get it. He does this to young, older, heavy set women, etc. None are off limits.
There won’t be any suing. This is Canada. We talk about things. And apologize. Another kicker is that my girlfriends position is significantly higher than his. I could somewhat understand the power trip of a boss with this type of poor behavior to a subordinate. But this seems dangerous for him. Unless that is the appeal. I’d love to know what he did for a job prior to this and if these behaviors were present then. I know he was brought in to replace someone who was retiring.
I’m just going to sit back and do nothing other than listen, document things when/if brought up. Be supportive to my GF. That’s it.
For the record, I did say** your girlfriend** should document everything.
(bolding mine, but I’m quoting myself anyway)
I know I’m having trouble believing it.
Purple
Yeah I agree. She’s interested in simply verbally sorting it out. I won’t even mention to her that SHE should be documenting it (or for that matter that I’m doing it). Like I said, she expects someone else to drop the hammer. She will voice her opinion if he acts up again towards her which I’m confident it will happen at some point. This guy is thick.
I agree with her on this-
It’s her job and her responsibility to deal with it. If I interfere it will do nothing but cause a caustic work environment.
As repellent as the guy’s behaviour is, I have to abide by her choice to deal with things on her terms. Still. I wake up every day concerned that he may try something. Knowing it will happen at some point. But at least I know she is prepared.
What Second Stone wrote is spot-on. Unfortunately (and this is not exclusive to sexual harassment issues) the person doing the complaining is often the one whose life is made miserable, and maybe the one who loses their job.
Wait, are you implying that you’re afraid that the guy would attempt to straight-up rape your GF or another co-worker? Or did I misunderstand “may try something” in your post?
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. By “try something” I’m afraid for my GF’s safety as the progression of his behaviour has gradually gone from flirt>suggestive talk>sexual talk>touch & sexual images, I expect the next step to be actual groping or as Marion suggested frottage or even possibly flat out verbally offensive propositions.
Another friend recently had an experience with a guy who knows she is happily married tell her that he wanted to see how hard he’d have to ---- her to induce a medical condition I prefer not to repeat. This incident is NOT in the same office nor the same guy. Totally unrelated situation. How vile is that!
While this guy’s behavior is undeniably reprehensible and ought to be grounds for firing, does it actually rise to the level of a successful SH case? There’s no quid pro quo. Can one guy create a “hostile environment” (in the legal sense) in an office that is 90% women? I’m not suggesting that I actually think it’s not SH, I really just don’t know the law.
Would the answer change if he has been repeatedly reported? At that point, is management creating a hostile environment by allowing it to continue?
It depends on the jurisdiction. In California, or Federal US courts, this creates a hostile environment. The person usually punished is the person who complains. This is regardless of whether it is a government employer or not.
If a suit is going to be brought, it is best to get written and signed statements from a number of women who then together bring the case. A case with just one woman will have the other previously supportive women evaporate unless they are as firmly committed: in writing and on the pleadings.
Exactly. Look how many years it took up here in Canada for the former CBC host to finally be charged. Well over a decade of sexual harassment & sexual abuse both at work and outside of work. Only after an actress spoke out did others begin to surface. There are a large number of complaints and a few formally pursuing legal action. One of which is a well known author/lawyer and now married woman with children. How tough was it for her to come forward?! I applaud her. No, I applaud all of the women whether coming forward or suffering silently.
If nobody considers the behaviours inappropriate, it is probably not sexual harassment. If there is a company policy against exact behaviors, or somebody complains, then, it may be out of line. Otherwise, it should be assumed that the environment is agreeable to everybody.
I think that a rule of thumb on SH is if somebody complains, it then, de facto, becomes a ‘hostile environment’. HR would then counsel the offender that said behaviour will not be tolerated. If it persists, he can be fired for at least one of numerous reasons.
I understand your not wanting to intervene and possibly complicate things, but I sure wouldn’t blame you for feeling the occasional touch of rage at his behaviour. I would love to knee this guy in the 'nads, headbutt, body-slam…
oops…
Now where was I? Oh yeah, what about invading his personal space? He shouldn’t mind, right? Say, standing close to him and telling him a long involved pointless anecdote, possibly stepping on his feet, smiling all the while…a little garlic on the breath wouldn’t hurt. He may just get the message.
Knucklefinger, there are three stages to responding to this guy.
-
Ignore him and hope he goes away. This sometimes works. In behavioral modification it’s called ‘fading the behavior’. This takes a long time.
-
The next time he makes a move, step away from him and say, “You’re being unprofessional, clean up your act.” Remarkably, I’ve found this works; even with drunks!
-
If he actually cops a feel or other unwelcome touch whirling on the guy and snapping “You touch me again and I’ll break your f*g little arm.” The problem with this stage is you really have to have The Voice, posture and expression to carry it off. Not every woman does. If your GF is not the kind of woman who can carry this off (you already know if she is or isn’t) then I wouldn’t recommend it.
I never actually got to use stage 3. The last time a guy grabbed ‘the girls’ in a bar I reflexively popped him in the throat with my elbow and laid him out of the floor. Ah, memories…
I turn a blind eye because of the inept way HR handled the one and only time I reported a SH case to them.
Female worker came into my office, closed the door, and requested a specific project be given to her. Then got right up in my personal space, grabbed at my crotch and said “I will do ANYTHING, and I do mean ANYTHING to get this assignment”.
I reported the incident to HR, like our mandatory training said to do. HR’s response was to interview the woman and say “Xizor has accused you of inappropriate behavior, did you do that? No, well ok then.” Then I was called in and they said in front of both of us “She has denied your accusations and since there were no witnesses, we can’t really do anything. Back to work you two.”
Now I just avoid that person.
Up front: I never flirt at the office. Partly because I’m married, partly because I’m too introverted to attempt it even if I were single. And if I DID talk trash to women I work with, I have little doubt they’d tell me to drop dead and then report me to HR.
That said… there are a FEW guys at my office (and one in particular) who flirt outrageously, dropping bad puns and innuendos constantly… and the women seem to LOVE it! If I said the same things he did, I have ZERO doubt that my female co-workers would slap me and never speak to me again. But he’s the type who can proposition a Ms.-reading feminist and have her laughing rather than fuming.
SOME people can do that! I’m not one of them and neither are 99% of other guys. If a woman ever DID report him to HR, he’d be canned. But none of them ever do report him… so why should I?
Are you sure you’re not misinterpreting nervous laughter? Because I have totally done nervous laughter.
No, I was not misinterpreting nervous laughter. These ladies were HOWLING with laughter.
Again, MOST men could never get away with what this guy said. Most guys who talked his kind of smack would be pariahs around the women of the office. This guy wasn’t a pariah. The ladies LOVED his trash talk. They ate it up.
I know I’d have gotten a kick in the jewels if I said anything remotely similar.