Muffin, that is one slammin’ gotcha!
You know, you may be on to something here. Although I’m sorry to say, I don’t think this new perspective supports your argument any more.
It may be that Mr. Gotbux rejected Suzie for a “Seinfeld reason”. That is, a reason that doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, and that you know is petty, but that’s just the way you are. But Shagnasty is taking the anecdote as proof that anyone who’s not a “simpleton”, or “hick”, if I’m correct about his interpretation, would think spoke volumes about Suzie’s character. In other words, she wasn’t being rejected for a Seinfeld reason, but a perfectly valid reason, one that many or most people would think was highly important.
But many people in this thread have claimed that Suzie’s milk order was not reflective of her character, and that ordering milk in a wine bar is not gauche, but merely. Meanwhile, the other side insists that you are what you drink, essentially, and that ordering milk in a bar is Simply Not Done, an offense equal to picking one’s nose. That’s why we’re at odds.
Oh my god you have got to be kidding. You admit that Mr. Gotbux has oddity issues, yet you still think he was right to look down on Suzie for ordering milk. You think ordering milk in a bar is off the wall uncouth behavior.
Man, you’re hopeless.
Good point. Before I left work tonight I asked both of the bartenders who work with me this question. I also asked two of the servers who work for me and in the past worked as bartenders in bars for their input. In all four cases they said basically what I have said.
[ol]
[li]They have never encounterd this situation.[/li][li]If they did, they would comply with the order. With a smile, one said.[/li][li]In all situations they have worked in, (in a bar, not a restaurant) they wouldn’t have been able to fullfil the request.[/li][/ol]
This doesn’t cast judgement on anyone who would ask for milk. It just goes to the point I have tried to make: Bars don’t have milk on hand, as a general rule, because they don’t need to.
Think of it this way: You manage, own or run a bar. Why buy milk if most of the time it will spoil before it is used. Cream or half and half you will use up before it spoils for coffee drinks, black russians, brandy alexanders, etc.
I think most of you have missed my point. I’m not saying anyone who orders milk in a bar should be held up to ridicule or public humiliation. I don’t agree with the snobbish attitudes several posters have taken. I just find it hard to believe that someone would ask for milk in a bar with a straight face. C’mon. Jack Benny is dead and Barney Fife is fictional.
By the way Contrapuntal, I did stop into my fave local bar tonight and ask my favorite bartender, Megan, if she had ever run across this situation. The answer was no. But she said, *if she had it to give to them * and they had the money to pay for it, she could care less. This is based on 22 years tending bar all over Chicago and Northern Indiana.
By the way, I never said that ordering milk in a bar was inappropriate behavior. Yeah, Shagnasty did. I agree he has his own really odd set of issues. I was just trying to get you guys to see that after a point, it looked to me that he was whooshing you all for his own enjoyment.
Very good point. Next time you are in Chicago, let’s you and I meet up and go for a couple of drinks. My fave hangout is a realllllly popular bar that specializes in Belgian beers and American microbrews. No Miller, Bud, Rolling Rock or other obvious choices. Weird, esoteric beers. Mostly Belgian, of all things. Over 200 in bottles and 25 on tap. Walk in and ask for whatever you want. They may not have it, but the staff will suggest something enough like it that you will end up very very happy.
As a general rule, I drink bourbon when I’m there. And nobody ever gives me attitude about it.
They do have milk. There is a restaurant attatched to the bar.
Indeed.
Of course I would consider ordering milk in a bar as unusual, but nothing more.
The uncouth behaviour came from the host who made a huge deal over it. His message to his date: “You are so stupid and embarrassing that I will now dismiss you.” What a fine example to others.
Very good.
Of course the multi-millionaire has none of these qualities.
As someone posted earlier, the classy thing to do is to order milk yourself to put your guest at her ease.
Go to the top of the class for paying attention! So which actor would win the award for worst American accent by a non-American?
Hugh Laurie in House gets my vote.
What if he’s lactose intolerant? Huh? Did you think of that? Is he supposed to undergo gastronomical distress just to make his milk-swilling date more comfortable?
You made up the rule that one must order a piece of lemon or lime with soda. If you did not, and it is such a common rule for respectable social behavior, I’m sure you’ll be able to come up with a cite for it. I’d still think it was a ridiculous rule that no one pays attention to, but I’d happily take back my accusation that you invented it out of whole cloth.
Oh, and “my wife is a fancy-schmancy food person, so I know”, is not a cite.
*These people never told you that you had to order fruit with your drink. I would bet money on it. What they may have told you is that you could order a soda with lemon or lime if you felt self-conscious about sitting there sipping a Coke like you were at the drive-in, but this is certainly not something one is obligated to do and no one would think less of you if you didn’t. It’s not rude to drink your soda unadorned by citrus garnishes.
Most swank joints stick a piece of lemon on your glass without being asked anyway. To remind them to do this when ordering would be silly, like specifying that you want ice in it too.
I have made it through several exclusive affairs just fine, including meals with foreign heads of state, and it’s becoming increasingly obvious to me that you haven’t got the class or common sense of a housefly. Let me clue you in here – neither class nor common sense suggests that one is socially obligated to add “…with lemon” to the end of “I’ll have a Coke”. No one with an ounce of class would think otherwise.
Why? Because Shagnasty’s wife has family members who went on Maury Povitch? You mean now that Shag says he’s a high-style guy that his whole family has to be, too?
Funny. Mr. Athena and I are both software engineers. We live a pretty good livestyle. I drive a BMW, we drink fine wine. I don’t order milk in a bar (<— a JOKE! This is a JOKE! Don’t fookin’ crucify me). Yet within my family, and I’m not talking third-cousin-twice-removed, some of these are my immediate family, I have:
- a whole slew of construction workers
- More than one convicted drug dealer (cocaine and pot, if you want to know)
- A few who can’t hold down a job and who have been on welfare most of their life
- One of my brothers has never flown on a plane, or even gone more than 100 miles from where he lives since he was a kid. He’s in his 40s now.
- Several drug addicts, at least one of whom died from an overdose
- A whole slew of situations that Jerry Springer would love to get his hands on.
Despite being related to these people, I manage to present myself as an intelligent, literate person.
And speaking of that, when did “unsophisticated” become such an insult? Everyone’s unsophisticated about things. Shagnasty himself admits he knows little about golf - an activity that is typically considered a somewhat sophisticated sport. I myself am sophisticated when it comes to food and drink, but I’m a hopeless boob about music. I’d consider myself to have unsophisticated tastes in music. Being unsophisticated isn’t an insult.
Also - about wine and beer bars that may not serve other drinks. In a lot of states, a wine & beer license is different than a full bar license. I wouldn’t expect a wine & beer place to have all the standard mixers, since they don’t mix drink, they just open wine & beer.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Well, as for myself, I have about 10 years in hospitality services in various institutions, as well as having attended a prep school where etiquette and social graces were as much a part of the curriculum as math or literature. I’d not go so far as to say it was as rigorous as a finishing school, but it was close, especially to a poor boy from Brooklyn.
I don’t teach from a text (though I am working on a text myself)- most of my seminar is drawn from my experience, and is usually an etiquette 101 seminar. I am one of those speakers that are brought in to college campuses and professional associations to give people a crash course. You would be surprised at what people don’t know, so i give them a quick and dirty intro to it.
But that’s beside the point. The main thrust of my post was not that ordering milk was some sort etiquette violation. It was not, in so far as I am aware. It was not a very good demonstration of social graces- as I said, at best, it’s an odd thing to order, and drawing attention to yourself is usually not a good thing in group settings like this. As for her date, after she ordered, the burden was on him to not make a big deal out of it during the course of the date. Afterwords, though, he’s not under any obligation to continue associating with her, especially on a romantic level.
The only reason that I brought it up in the first place was to be able to use the ‘side of the road’ analogy in context. I suppose I could have said, ‘you know, I was telling my friend the other day’…but that would have been silly. Just so we’re clear, I was not trying to ‘trump’ anyone’s argument with my sideline. it just seemed topical. Social grace and etiquette are quite often very different things. Quite often etiquette can be reduced to the golden rule, whereas social graces can be quite complex at times, depending on the situation.
I don’t try to prepare people to dine with the Queen- but I do try to get them to the point where they can attend a function and not freak out a potential client.
:eek: Are you kidding? Milk is the finest drink ever! It makes for a perfect after-dinner drink for almost any meal, from the heavy (beef n’ stuff) to a light vegetarian half-snack. Why, I can’t comprehend how anyone, self-styled sophisticate or not, could possible not see the glory of MILK!
Question: Why was it a burden? Why was it important at all?
Here, Here! Milk is as fine a beverage as any. I can’t comprehend the attitude that Milk is unsophisticated, especially when people go out and order flavored sugar-water all the time.
Sophisticate: I’ll have the '56 Chapeau Derriere.
Ingenue: We’re at a bar, you pussy! Garcon! Double fucking Johnny Black!
Don’t cry over being spilt for milk.
It’s clear that in his mind it was an issue (I don’t really see the value in debating whether it should have been or not)- but no matter how she might have behaved, nothing justifies him either making an issue of it, or being snarky with her for the duration of the date as a way of ‘getting back’ at her.
Does that make sense?
Oh, you missed it. Shagnasty proclaimed in the original thread that he is too sophisticated for the Michelin guide - after all, it’s a tire company. No, he stands by the user-submitted ratings at the Fodor’s website. Apparently that’s where the sophisticates go to find the finest restaurants. Anyway, I hope this thread continues. I like listening to Shagnasty expound upon sophistication. It’s amusing, sort of like finding out what Danielle Steele considers to be great literature.
You have GOT to be shitting me. So this John guy is filthy rich, but he’s also kind of odd and not a good candidate? So WHAT did Suzie do that was so wrong? She lucked out-she married someone else, and John is all alone. If you ask me, JOHN is the one who shot himself in the foot-dumping a really sweet person just because they ordered fucking milk.
Ordering milk is NOT “uncouth.” It’s odd, yes, but not uncouth. “Uncouth” would be if she asked for a bendy-straw and then sat there slurping it up.
“Class” has absolutely nothing to do with what drink you order. A truly classy gentleman might have blinked over her request, but he would not have declared her an “unsophistocated simpleton” on the spot.
Anyone who thinks class has to do with asking for fruit slices with soda probably thinks that Zima and wine coolers are the epitome of chic.
You people need to relax. Did “foodies” burn your village?
What do you consider “stepping on eggshells”? Not being loud and obnoxious in the restaurant? Not dressing like a homeless person? Refraining from flinging food at other people?
The more Shagnasty says about these people, the more it seems that the moral of the story was the opposite of what he originally claimed it was. If the whole thing is true, the moral is clearly “Be yourself and order what you like when you go out. That way you’ll end up happy with someone who shares your tastes. People who worry too much about impressing others could get stuck in a bad relationship with someone they’re not compatible with, and people who are too judgemental end up alone.”
*That may be the funniest thing about this whole mess. I’m having a hard time imagining what kind of person would be impressed if I ordered a soda…with lemon! Like people are really going to think “That must be one classy dame there. She don’t drink plain soda like your ordinary schlubs, she asks for it with fruit!”
You made me snort.