Shagnasty and the Worst Anecdote in SDMB History

[Stonebow]

Upon making my way through this thread and the others referenced, I have come to the conclusion that I am, in fact, a snob. My Lady contends that she has always known this. shrug

Seriously, some of the arguments coming from the other side are boggling to me. I have never liked the idea that you should be able to do whatever you want, act however you want, present yourself in whatever way you want, and it have no bearing on how you are perceived or treated. There are proper modes of dress and conduct for given situations, and when you stray outside those guidelines, you open yourself to criticism. You can’t have it both ways- if you do something out of the ordinary, you are not always going to be hailed as an individualist- you will often be thought of as either ignorant or rude. This is not in any way a green light for people to be mean to you, but don’t expect positive results from it.

In the case referenced by the OP, I don’t think that **Shagnasty’s ** point was that the lady was childish for ordering non-alcoholic, rather she was childish for ordering something unsuited to the venue and situation she was in. **Athena’s ** analogy about the child’s menu is spot on, i think.

In any case, I don’t see what the big deal is. People should associate with those that make them comfortable, and with whom they can have a good time. If this guy’s thing is wine, then being with a non-wine drinker would have been awkward and frustrating for both of them. In the other thread, people seemed to make much over the idea that there are ‘deal-breakers’ for social interactions, especially romantic ones.

If I’m into something you don’t like, it doesn’t make you a bad person- but if I can’t share it with you, I’m likely not going to spend a lot of time with you. It’s nothing personal.

[Athena]

Hey Stonebow, let’s blow this joint and head over to that new restaurant. I hear their pate is amazing, and I’m really in the mood for a glass of the Hine Antique. Let me just slip into something appropriate and put on some jewelry. I’ll meet you and Mrs. Stonebow at the bar, ok?

What’s doubly ironic about this whole thing is my actual life - I’m willing to be that on a day to day basis I’m WAY more of a let loose slobby type of person than Miller or others who advocate the “anything you want to do is fine by me” lifestyle. Hell, most days I don’t even get out of my pajamas. I try to shower once a day, but don’t always make it. There’s dog hair everywhere, and my office is a mess. But hey, I clean up well, and can hold my own at a 5 star place. And I would never order milk over a glass of champagne.

[missbunny]

Who cares if he didn’t want to date her because she ordered milk at a bar. (Which I agree is weird - anyone ever seen the milk bottle in the ice well? If you did, you’d never order a milk drink again.) So he thinks she’s uncouth or unsophisticated or dumb - good, then they should both cut their losses and get out quickly.

People “don’t want” to date other people over very minor things all the time. It’s called having preferences. If I were on a first date with someone and he popped a wad of bubblegum in his mouth, I would lose all desire to date him again. Gum - the thought of gum, the smell of gum, watching someone chew gum - just grosses me out in the extreme. I don’t wish to have an intimate relationship with someone who chews gum, and if it’s our first or second date, might as well get out sooner rather than later. I guess that makes me shallow. That’s okay - someone probably has dumped me (early in our dating) in the past because he didn’t like the fact that I bite my fingernails sometimes and they can look pretty ugly. Life goes on.

That said, I thought Shagnasty’s story was cute and funny.

[tdn]

@Vetch

I was sympathetic to your point of view right up until here.

Unless I’ve missed something in the anecdote from Shagnasty I don’t get this.
Is one glass of wine the epitome of lushness?
I feel guilty now about the two glasses of wine I had with my dinner last night.

You miss the point. We know he is a lush (and probably kicks puppies) because the point of this thread is to not judge people based soley on one drink that they ordered. He was an asshole for judging that woman for ordering milk. We can easily sum up his entire personality because he ordered wine. Simple, really.

Here’s another anecdote: I met a woman through a personal. Well, never met her, but had a phone conversation. During the course of the conversation, I asked her what sorts of TV shows she liked to watch. She said she liked pro-wrestling. She asked me what I liked. I said I liked science documentaries. She answered that with an incredulous “oooookay, what Everrrrr.” I never called her again.

Question: Does this make me a pretentious prick, or a puppy-kicking alkie?

[lno]

I’ve been perusing your fortified wine list, and I’ve selected the '71 Hobo’s Delight, the '57 Chateau Parte and the '66 Thunder Shewitz. Oh, and mix them all together in a big jug.

[TVeblen]

I just know I’m going to regret even edging sideways into this mess.

When dining/drinking in company, the emphasis is on ‘company’. The food/drinks are just props. Adults are assumed able to manage the props deftly so they don’t become the focus. And ‘handling deftly’ means not making a big whoopdedoo over personal preferences, no matter the direction they take.

The worst I can say about Shagnasty’s anecdote is that the young lady was a bit gauche. The choices weren’t Demon Rum or milk. C’mon already. Alcholol is just available in bars and fancy restaurants, not required. Plenty of people, even ‘sophisticates’, often choose not to drink: they aren’t in the mood for it, recovering alcoholics, mindful of calories, whatever.

Deft compromises: plain tonic or soda with a twist, ginger ale, Virgin Mary (tomato juice & spices w/o the booze), orange juice, bottled water, whatever. They’re convivial beverages that make a nod to the place and occassion without a fuss. Nobody with an ounce of sense or courtesy would note or comment on such choices.

Really, a common sense middle ground isn’t all that tough to figure out.

[elmwood]

@Stonebow

In the case referenced by the OP, I don’t think that **Shagnasty’s ** point was that the lady was childish for ordering non-alcoholic, rather she was childish for ordering something unsuited to the venue and situation she was in…

I’d like to hear that from Shagnasty. There are many different ways the story and its intended message can be interpreted.

1) Man takes non-drinking woman to a bar, she orders milk because she doesn’t drink alcohol. She’s a childlike simpleton because she should be open-minded to all beverages, and being a non-drinker isn’t an excuse for turning down wine or beer.

This is the way I interpreted the message of the storyteller. The problem: what if she’s a non-smoker, he took her to a cigar bar, and she decided to have a Coke instead of a Cohiba? What if she turned down an offer of weed or cocaine; are you obligated to consume illegal drugs to be “open-minded” and not offend your host?

2) Man takes non-drinking woman to a bar, he orders wine, she orders milk. She’s a childlike simpleton because she ordered something inappropriate to the venue.

Defending her: she probably didn’t have any choice in the venue, and she might have had a brain fart that would make her forget about non-alcoholic beverages available in a bar; ginger ale, club soda, various non-alvoholic mixed drinks, and so on.

3) Man and woman both agree on a bar – she just doesn’t say “yeah, sure” after his suggestion, but thinks it’s a good place to have the date – he orders wine, she orders milk. She’s a childlike simpleton because she wanted to go to the bar too, not just because the guy wanted to go there but because she thought it was a good place for a date, but ordered something inappropriate to the venue.

Shagnasty may be an asshat, but if #3 was the intent of the story, I might say he has a point. She could have objected to the venue and instead suggest a coffee house or restaurant where alcohol is not the main focus of the venue. Even then, a faux pax like ordering milk at a fancy wine bar isn’t enough to permanently label someone as a simpleton; as Miller said, “Maybe she paints. Maybe she enjoys the opera. Maybe she speaks five different languages.”

I find it hard to believe that Shagnasty has never made similar slips himself, though. We all do stupid things, but we shouldn’t be considered childlike savages because we commit a minor violation of an unwritten social norm.

Even if Shagnasty intended to tell message #3, it’s still a bad analogy considering the thread. The subject of ordering something inappropriate to a venue was never mentioned in the thread – no picky eater claimed that they should be able to order chicken fingers at The Palm, or plain hamburgers at Morton’s (and again, picky eater != only eats kiddie or bland food), and none of the pickies participating ever claimed that such behavior would be justifiable.

[tdn]

Perhaps this is the simpleton in me, but if I was on a date with a woman that ordered milk, I’d think I was out with Pat Boone. My mind would immediately draw conclusions about what other “dangerous” behaviors she refused to engage in. Premarital oral sex being one of them.

Of course, if I liked her enough, I’d stick it out long enough to get more empirical evidence.

[Miller]

@Athena

Let me ask you this: if you took a date to a nice, family-oriented restaurant, and she ordered off the children’s menu (“Oh! I really want the grilled cheese sandwich, applesauce, and chocolate milk!”) wouldn’t you think that was a bit odd?

Odd? Yes. So what? What’s wrong with odd?

Yes, there are certain social and etiquette points that most people must learn in their lives in order to function in society. Early on we learn not to pick our noses in public; later on we learn that if we come to a fancy theater production late, we may not be allowed in the theater until intermission. I dunno about you, but I was taught most of these etiquette points by various people in my life.

You still haven’t explained how ordering milk is the same as picking your nose in public.

YOU read the “moral” into that story. I saw no moral there; I saw someone who is a bit picky about the kind of mate he wants, and acted upon that. Where did Shagnasty say that if you didn’t like something he likes that you should be looked down upon? Sounds to me like you’re reading a hell of a lot into that story that isn’t there.

You saw no moral? What about this:

@Shagnasty

The moral to that story is that you have the right to eat and drink whatever you want but don’t be surprised when people judge you negatively for your simpleton ways.

She’s not just “odd,” or “unsophisticated” in Shagnasty’s view. She’s a simpleton. He specifically says she’s stupid for not liking wine. He says this twice, even. You don’t see anything at all objectionable about that?

[elmwood]

@tdn

Perhaps this is the simpleton in me, but if I was on a date with a woman that ordered milk, I’d think I was out with Pat Boone. My mind would immediately draw conclusions about what other “dangerous” behaviors she refused to engage in. Premarital oral sex being one of them.

I might get that same message, too, but there would probably be other clues; talking about her church a lot, her “personal relationship with Christ Jesus,” talking about hobbies such as knitting doilies and cozies, her moral disconnect with today’s society, and so on. If she just ordered milk at a wine bar, but otherwise seemed normal, I would just assume it’s a faux pax or brain fart and leave it at that.

Even then, if you arranged a date with such a woman, she would probably vehimently object to the suggested venue, and the ordering-milk-at-a-bar scenario would likely never take place

[tdn]

@Miller

He specifically says she’s stupid for not liking wine.

No, he does not specifically say she’s stupid. He says she has simpleton ways. This is from the text that you yourself quoted, then grossly misinterpreted. Now “simpleton ways” itself may be Pitworthy, but you’d have to make a fairly uncharitable interpretation to get that. A more charitable interpretation might be “Ways that one might perceive as simple.” I’ll leave it to Shagnasty to illuminate further.

[neutron_star]

@Vetch

Unless I’ve missed something in the anecdote from Shagnasty I don’t get this.
Is one glass of wine the epitome of lushness?

If I didn’t want to associate with anyone who didn’t smoke weed, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone called me a pothead…

@Athena

Nothing is wrong with drinking milk. However, much like chocolate milk, milkshakes, Yahoo!, Bubble-gum flavored soda, and Shirley Temples, milk is an odd thing for an adult to order at a fancy restaurant.

Let me ask you this: if you took a date to a nice, family-oriented restaurant, and she ordered off the children’s menu (“Oh! I really want the grilled cheese sandwich, applesauce, and chocolate milk!”) wouldn’t you think that was a bit odd?

Uh, when did milk become the equivalent of ordering from the children’s menu? I see plenty of billboards with adult celebrities hawking milk, but none for the other things you mention.

Yes, there are certain social and etiquette points that most people must learn in their lives in order to function in society. Early on we learn not to pick our noses in public; later on we learn that if we come to a fancy theater production late, we may not be allowed in the theater until intermission. I dunno about you, but I was taught most of these etiquette points by various people in my life.

These are activities that actively annoy people. Drinking milk is not one of them.

Where did Shagnasty say that if you didn’t like something he likes that you should be looked down upon? Sounds to me like you’re reading a hell of a lot into that story that isn’t there.

Perhaps you should read the linked thread to put the anecdote in context:

@Shagnasty

Picky eaters are a bunch of world-class, self-absorbed, pussies unless they are actually allergic to something.

@Shagnasty

Come out of your close-minded, food bigoted little world, and try to learn something and try new things.

[Anaamika]

You people are freaking out over a girl ordering *milk * in a *wine * bar?

I simply can’t comprehend this.

On the one hand, we have people bitching because “picky people never let you eat anywhere.” On the other hand, we have this woman who agreed to go to a wine bar that the other guy suggested, even though she didn’t intend to drink!

I see her as being the polite one. If she had said, “I can’t go there, I don’t drink” a whole bunch of people would have jumped down her throat for being a picky eater.

-Anaamika, who is definitely not a picky eater, but can’t understand all the hullabaloo. If the picky eaters make a pain in the ass about themselves, that’s one thing. If they go to the restaurant and find something they like on the menu, even if it isn’t their taste of restaurant, why do you care?

[Miller]

@tdn

No, he does not specifically say she’s stupid. He says she has simpleton ways.

Read the entire post I quoted in the OP:

@Shagnasty

Scrrrreeeechhhh! They finished the date but blew her chance because she showed herself as an unsophisticated simpleton (which she is).

This is from the text that you yourself quoted, then grossly misinterpreted.

Bullshit. “Simpleton” is not a synonym for “unsophisticated.” It’s a synonym for “mentally retarded.”

Now “simpleton ways” itself may be Pitworthy, but you’d have to make a fairly uncharitable interpretation to get that. A more charitable interpretation might be “Ways that one might perceive as simple.” I’ll leave it to Shagnasty to illuminate further.

That’s not just the uncharitable reading, that’s the only reading.

[Contrapuntal]

I side with Miller on this, and, like Anaamika, I am trying to get my brain around the whole deal. The waiter asked her what she wanted to drink and she told him. Should she have lied? She wanted milk and she asked for milk. Why in the world should he impose his drink preferences upon her? Would he have rather dated this woman?

[Lamia]

@Athena

Nothing is wrong with drinking milk. However, much like chocolate milk, milkshakes, Yahoo!, Bubble-gum flavored soda, and Shirley Temples, milk is an odd thing for an adult to order at a fancy restaurant.

He didn’t say it was a fancy restaurant, it was a fancy bar. If a fancy bar has milk, I doubt it’s there for the benefit of children. If the woman had insisted upon having something not on the menu, that might be a sign that she was overly demanding. But what’s strange about ordering off the drink list that’s presented to you?

I am, of course, assuming that the woman was given a list of available drinks and that milk was on that list. From the story, it doesn’t sound as though she threw some sort of Jennifer Lopez style fit and demanded that someone bring her a drink that wasn’t on the menu. If she wasn’t in fact given a drink list because her date expected her to come up with something off the top of her head at a fancy bar that she’d never been to before, then he was being horribly inconsiderate. If that’s what happened it would also be little wonder that she couldn’t think of a suitably “sophisticated” drink when put on the spot.

Hell, she may have even been joking or just trying to be cute.

@Stonebow

In the case referenced by the OP, I don’t think that **Shagnasty’s ** point was that the lady was childish for ordering non-alcoholic, rather she was childish for ordering something unsuited to the venue and situation she was in.

If they had milk then the management obviously didn’t think it was unsuitable for the venue, and they’d be the best judge of that.

[Stonebow]

@Anaamika

If the picky eaters make a pain in the ass about themselves, that’s one thing. If they go to the restaurant and find something they like on the menu, even if it isn’t their taste of restaurant, why do you care?

Well, i think it’s already been pointed out that there are plenty of appropriate non-alcoholic beverages out there, milk just isn’t one of them- not in a bar, not on a date with a grown up. And if the lady doesn’t drink, she should have declined going to a bar (by decline, i mean, offer an alternate activity).

What if she sat down and just ordered a bowl of olives? We know that bars have them because they serve martinis, but isn’t that kind of odd? It’s just not appropriate. Not evil, just not right in this case.

She’s not being a picky eater, and no one is accusing her of such- I believe that **Shagnasty ** is listing BOTH her behavior and that of the Picky Eater under the heading of ‘immature.’

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE]

@Stonebow

Well, i think it’s already been pointed out that there are plenty of appropriate non-alcoholic beverages out there, milk just isn’t one of them- not in a bar, not on a date with a grown up.

Sez who? She wanted milk she asked for milk. You folks who think you know what is or is not “appropriate” for another human to drink need to get the fuck over yourselves. And you folks who defend her being classified as a simpleton are beyond the reach of reason. **She drank a glass of milk in a bar!! ** I’m glad I’m not being judged by you shallow motherfuckers.

[neutron_star]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that there are actually people out there who seriously equate drinking milk in a bar to sitting in public digging juicy boogers out of your nose.

[Anaamika]

@Stonebow

Well, i think it’s already been pointed out that there are plenty of appropriate non-alcoholic beverages out there, milk just isn’t one of them- not in a bar, not on a date with a grown up. And if the lady doesn’t drink, she should have declined going to a bar (by decline, i mean, offer an alternate activity).

Hmm. I guess we’re *never * going on a date then, because I’ve ordered milk in a bar before and not thought the least of it.

If I want milk, I want milk. Am I making you drink milk?

I can’t even comprehend this attitude…what’s “appropriate”. I don’t see in any way that milk is inappropriate. Dancing on the table might not be. Perhaps she should have dumped the milk on his head; now **that ** would be appropriate.