Shit test/fitness test

In My Humble Opinion
41

You’ve misread. The positive message is about being confident in such situations, it’s not praising the person who’s doing the testing.

Now, there are two things that people often say when I’ve described some PUA advice, and they can’t find fault with it.

One is “Sure, that’s obvious, everyone knows you’ve got to be confident, be yourself, yadda yadda”. But while everyone knows the importance of being confident, it’s too vague. It’s not always obvious what the confident (while still being yourself and being a nice guy) thing to do is.
It’s helpful, it’s helped me a lot, to talk about specific social interactions.

The other thing is “Why would you want to talk to people that shit test you?”. Well, maybe you don’t. Step 1 is recognizing when it happens. Then you can decide to walk away.
But the truth is, lots of people, nice people, will act this way from time to time. So it’s great to be able to deal with such things and move conversations towards something more positive.

42

Well I’ll grant you that I misunderstood what you meant, I don’t think I necessarily misread what you wrote.

Encouraging confidence is a very positive thing, so I do agree with you on that.

I don’t agree with your first counterpoint though. Confidence isn’t like etiquette. You can’t learn what the confident thing to do in a given situation is and gradually become confident. There are some very insecure habits some people have and they’d benefit from practice not doing them but I don’t believe that anyone attempting to be the Eliza Doolittles of confidence is going to have much success with it.

I’m glad you feel it’s been helpful in your own life though.

43

She’d argue, but she’d be forced to admit that the lack of loyalty seen in many, many younger American women is pretty disheartening.

And they’re not idiotic. My best friend’s wife just cheated on him and left him, after he lost his job and went back to get his doctorate. She, OTOH, was more than happy to be supported by him while she was in grad school. Now that he’s in the middle of school, she has no time for him. She’s a scammy, materialistic, selfish, immature sack of fuck…and, sadly, I’ve seen her type a number of times before. I don’t even hate her, but I SURE wouldn’t marry someone like that. I don’t have time for that bull.

Sure, you can find young American women who won’t leave you at the drop of a hat. But that’s not my point. I’m not so much pointing out character flaws as simply noting that

  1. youth
  2. financial/career success
  3. intelligence and better education
  4. the current cultural ethos among young women re: patience with imperfect men :stuck_out_tongue:
  5. materialism (very common these days in this country)

All combine to make “leaving his sorry ass” a very common reality, more and more. Women are, increasingly, the “divorce-filing gender”, in this country. I can, of course, back this up with statistics.

In a healthier, more stable culture relationships would be more stable and long-lasting. That’s not what’s happening here, though.

I will say that 1-4 can be easily counteracted by having a personality tendency toward being very loyal. Number 5, not so much, although it’s not necessarily a complete death sentence for relationships.

My wife is both loyal and non-materialistic, and she’s willing to overlooks my flaws.

And that’s why I married HER, and not any one of dozens of other women.

That’s not to say that, in a different place and time, I might not have picked someone without much regard for loyalty. However, loyalty, because of the current situation in this country, needs to be high on a man’s list, if he wants to have a long marriage.

44

However, and here’s why I spoke of a self-inflicted test, sometimes Person #1 will not even be seeking or intending to test or prove anything; it’s Person #2’s unexpected or inappropriate reaction that makes Person #1 take pause and think about it.

I don’t know if phrasing it as “confidence test” would help much. As you point out yourself the very concept of “PUA” or “Game” just rubs many people the wrong way (and similarly “The Rules”, from the distaff side). This XKCD reflects the gut feeling of many people. I do wonder if a lot of the reaction has to do with terms like “rules”, “game” or “neurolinguistic programming” (and I hope we can see why some people would be upset about the idea of being subject to “game” and to “programming”).

45

al27052, you wouldn’t happen to be someone who wasn’t born in the USA, would you? How about your wife?

46

I’d be careful throwing around that “can’t.” God knows I can find fault with it, and I promise you that I’ve heard it all.

47

Both born and raised in the US.

48

My experience is that most women aren’t going to do stupid things like this. But some will. Some men are going to try the same idea.

So a word of caution to those considering the idea of giving their partner some “shit” to see if they can handle it. You might find out whether or not they can put up with your shit. But you might also find out whether or not they think you’re worth putting up with shit for.

49

Agreed… the key factor in not reacting defensively is to not feel defensive in the first place. Not the other way around.

50

The biggest red flag that someone is likely a bitter misogynist/misandrist is not believing that “all men/women are scum”, but rather that “all men/women but my man/woman are scum”.

It’s subtle but very telling.

51

Fuzzy Dunlop, I’m glad we’ve found much to agree on.
But on this point:

Do you feel the same way about Assertiveness or Public Speaking classes, say? Or hell, “Building Self Confidence” groups?

I agree that real confidence is built from positive experiences. But if you’re in the position of lacking confidence, having many negative experiences under your belt and/or not being quite sure what you’re doing wrong, it’s a very difficult state to pull yourself out of. And when it comes to trying to meet new people this kind of state is common, not rare.

Specific advice and feedback can and does help get people out of this.

52

I don’t know what an assertiveness class is but it reminds me of my experience with police. I’ve had a lot of experience working with police and occasionally encountered other police as a potential lawbreaker.

It’s always made me wonder what kind of behavioral training they get because when you’re pulled over for speeding they always have that incredibly assertive stern vibe that’s completely gone when you’re working with them. But even while it’s effective for a 5 minute traffic stop, it’s obvious they’re deliberately acting that way as part of their job. I don’t see how it would help someone who wants to actually be more assertive in every day life.

Public speaking is a skill. You can learn it to a certain extent but most of the value will come from practicing in front of your classmates and continuing to practice. But again, it’s a skill or a talent people develop. It’s only peripherally related to confidence in the same way so many things are.

Is that like group therapy or just learning tricks to appear confident at first glance? I imagine it varies. But as I said, I see limited value in learning tricks to appear confident.

Whether or not there’s value in applying tricks to meet women, I’d say it’s not appropriate to associate it with self-confidence. And I really don’t mean to be derisive when I call it a trick. It’s the best word I can think of to describe what I’m hearing from you - a clever way to appear to be something you’re not.

Overall I’d say associating self-confidence so strongly with picking up women is a lot like eating healthy and exercising a lot in order to get great biceps.

Self-confidence is definitely attractive to the opposite sex and exercise and healthy eating can build biceps, but it’s so narrowly construing the point of both that it seems unhealthy.

53

Well, the thing you appear to be hearing is perhaps your own pre-existing idea of what the PUA thing is about.
The one example I have given is to respond to the question “Oh, you play those things?” with “Yes”, if indeed you are someone who plays video games. How is that a “trick”?

In terms of building confidence, I think it’s the same as the Public Speaking class. You can build some confidence by getting advice on things you could say and getting feedback on what you’re doing wrong currently. Then you build on that a bit at a time with real world practice.

But more specifically, I do think that “pretending” to be confident is fine in the short term and can be a necessary step towards being confident.
There’s no way that approaching lots of women in a nervous, awkward way (because that’s really how you’re feeling) will just build confidence over time. I’ve been there, done that.

54

I was actually mostly basing my thoughts on your example. If some rude woman insults your interest in video games, why would somebody’s instinct to apologize for it? Is it out of desperation to be liked by any woman? Is it a feeling that things you’re interested in can’t be good? Do you feel you don’t deserve to be treated respectfully?

I don’t mean to get too deep into anyone’s root feelings of inadequacy, let alone yours in particular. My point is that your internal reaction is to apologize to some rude woman who is being kind of a bitch. I don’t see how catching yourself and saying yes is helpful.

I think you should strive for your natural reaction to be “what a fucking rude thing to say” and then catching yourself and say “yes” before politely excusing yourself and looking for a new person to talk to.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that it’s pretty awesome to go through life with a positive self-image, firmly believing that people like you and care about your well being, that you deserve to be treated with respect, etc. I think it’s an unfortunate mistake to think that confidence is about approaching women without getting sweaty.

55

All I can do is quote for you what I said a few posts ago:

…and notice that I am speaking more generally than just the dating thing on this point. For example, your boss might shit test you, and it’s valuable to be able to recognize it for what it is, and be able to deal.

I don’t get your point here.
First of all, I’ve tried to be as general as possible in my points; of course confidence is important in many ways, not just dating. The only reason we come back to dating is because the term “shit test” was originally coined in that context.

Secondly, that’s great, I’m happy that you have had this positive self-image, confidence etc all along.
The thing is, if you’re confident, stuff’s more likely to go well for you and you grow in confidence. But if you lack confidence, the opposite applies. This is why people can really get into a hole and get into a position where, say, standing up and doing a speech becomes the most terrifying thing ever “I suck at this, and last time I did it, it was embarrassing for everyone”.
People do need help digging themselves out of this (or rather: it’s much easier getting out of that hole with some advice and support).

56

I think virtually everybody deserves to to have a positive self image and I definitely think they deserve help getting. And when I say virtually everybody I don’t mean that schmucks who live in their mom’s basement shouldn’t feel worthwhile, they should. I mean if you’re a child rapist it’s ok to feel bad about yourself.

I’m not advocating anyone being forced to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It’s just that what I’ve heard about your pick up artist techniques seems more about trying to be perceived a certain way than about actually seeing yourself a different way.

57

Well hopefully I’ve done something to counter what you’ve previously heard about PUA.

Let me explain a bit more about my involvement in all this.
Shortly after reading The Game and making a vast improvement in my own life, I got to be good friends with a PUA and helped him promote his events. At his sessions there was pretty much a 50:50 male:female ratio. Really. And we talked about standard game stuff – advice from The Game book, we watched Tyler Durden videos and so on.
Because there’s really nothing sinister about it; it’s not “Here’s how we can trick women into bed because they’re stupid”. It’s more like “Here’s how you can have a fun conversation with someone that you’ll both remember and enjoy. Here’s what being playful and flirty actually means”.

To this day, I’m happy to talk about my experience with PUA and what I got from it.
At least on this side of the Atlantic there’s no shame in this. I wonder what happened to PUA in the US; whether it imploded from within or just acquired a reputation it didn’t deserve. :confused:

58

I’ve got my battle scars from women, and so do a lot of my friends. It’s not that men don’t do bad things…it’s that women’s bullshit doesn’t get talked about in this society. Women are much less likely to be executed for the exact same crime, for example. They are less likely to be forced to take responsibility, on average, in this society.

But that’s not the issue here. The issue I raised, repeatedly, is that women, more and more, are the ones filing for divorce. They’re the ones showing disloyalty. Of course, not every woman who files for divorce is doing so out of immaturity or selfishness. Most times I’d say the current popular culture is a large component as well.

One must recognize, as well, that most people in this country still expect men to be the breadwinners. Women are taking more and more of the available jobs, and getting better and better pay…yet when’s the last time you heard of a man leaving his wife because she got fired?

It’s not fair, and don’t expect me to not say it just because it goes against the zeitgeist. Fuck the zeitgeist. The zeitgeist, by nature, is temporary, and kind of fucked up, too.

Even when there are no children, divorce is very hard on people. It correlates with a shorter lifespan.

My larger point, however, is not that women, or even American women, are all bad people, or mostly bad people. I don’t think so at all. What I DO think is that, for multiple reasons, young American women are becoming more and more willing to divorce their husbands. Sometimes there are substantive reasons…and sometimes NOT. Divorce is becoming the kneejerk reaction, and that’s not necessarily a great thing.

It is what it is.

59

If your Wife divorces you for losing your job, you are better off. Married for the wrong reasons.

60

I hadn’t considered that.

That means the majority of marriages in this country for people under about age 40 are for the wrong reasons, though. ROFL