I doubt it will change anything, but hope springs eternal! And maybe it’s silly, but trying to persuade racists to change their views is a hobby of mine, whether through gentle persuasion, hard reason, or even mockery. I don’t get too many wins, but the ones I get are so, so worth it!
So you decided to extend the lease on that rent-free space in your head, then?
I’m a generous man! All Dopers are welcome in this ol’ noggin.
Speaking of George Zimmerman, he’s suing Elizabeth Warren and Mayor Pete for defamation of character, to the tune of $265 million, for tweeting that Trayvon Martin would now be 25.
No way is that guy’s character worth $265 million. Five grand and a golden retriever, maybe.
Would you please leave retrievers out of this??!? :mad:
Five, grand, tomato throws to the head and a psyched ya handshake.*
*Making sure, of course, that you don’t pull the feint too quickly or jerkingly in case you-know-who has to stand his ground.
ETA on footnote: Even by the first wind-up of the tomato-throwing, GeeZee’ll have Glocky out all stalwart quick.
You haven’t been following US politics lately, have you?
Is culture immutable?
Is culture irrelevant?
Is culture yogurt?
Is culture a club?
Andy, I know your intentions are good, but chances are, digging up old wounds and rehashing 7-year old arguments aren’t going to improve anybody’s outlook. I can’t think Shodan, or anybody else for that matter, would like to be reminded of past strife and be expected to come back with a positive reaction. It smacks of elitism, which usually alienates the Joe 6-Pack contingent, who don’t like being told their culture doesn’t meet liberal approval. Thus, more votes for Trump. This fall, we’ll see the US map almost covered completely with red, because Democrats won’t have learned the lessons from 2016.
Like the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Explain to me this awesome plan of gathering the favor of the ‘fuck your feelings’ group by refusing to fuck their feelings? How is this going to work again?
“Fuck you, goddamned <slur>”
“Awww, man, don’t do that. Please?”
“Oh, Ok. Ready to go vote Warren?”
WADR that is not even the point. The post in question did not imply that there was any connection between black culture and low test scores.
As you probably know, the scientific method consists roughly of
[ul][li]Observing some phenomenon.[/li][li]Formulating a hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon.[/li][li]Designing an experiment that alters the variables in the hypothesis, but leaves the others the same, and predicting the results.[/li][li]Then you carry out the experiment and look at the results and see if they match the prediction. If they do, that is evidence (not proof) in favor of the hypothesis. If they don’t, that is evidence against it.[/ul][/li]The observed phenomenon in this case was, math and reading scores for black students in a given school system were abysmal. The hypothesis was that this was because the students were ***not ***being taught in a context of “black culture”. The experiment was to set up a school that did teach in a context of “black culture”. The prediction was that the scores of the students would be better. The results were that they were not. Therefore the evidence indicates, not that “black culture” leads to lower test scores, but that it doesn’t fix them. Whether or not the school teaches in a way that respects or implements one version of “black culture” makes, apparently, no difference in the test scores.
Therefore, it is probably something other than “black culture” as taught in that school that causes the low test scores.
Now here is the part where iiandyiiii stops listening.
We don’t know what that something is. We only know that teaching “black culture” as envisioned at that particular school didn’t fix the problem. Maybe a different version of black culture would fix it, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with the schools, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with culture at all. We don’t know.
Now, iiandyiiii cannot understand the previous paragraph. Because he has only two slots in his head, and everything related to race has to be put into one or the other slot.
Either a statement is saying, directly or indirectly, [ul][li]it’s the white man’s fault, or [*]it’s crimethink.[/ul]He can read well enough to know it’s not the first. Ergo, it has to be the second. [/li]
In this particular instance, he has taken it into his little head that the form of crimethink is “black people are inferior”. Therefore, he cannot see - literally cannot see - the statement “we don’t know what that something is”. And thus he has to translate that blank space in the post to say something like “we do know what that something is” and then fill in the rest of the blank with the rest of the crimethink.
That’s why he has spent the last six months searching for something that gave him a reason to re-post #62 of this thread. He was looking for crimethink to fill in the blanks, and that’s the best he could come up with.
George Orwell was a gifted and insightful writer. Before I joined the SDMB, I didn’t realize he was trying to write a documentary.
Regards,
Shodan
Virtually nothing we say or do on this board matters. This is pretty much all just passing the time. I always hope that I can help folks be better (and I hope that I can be better myself), but I recognize this almost never happens due to persuasion-by-post. It’s no big deal – just the fun of the Pit (though “almost never happens” is still not-quite-never). I don’t claim that it’s anything more, even as I have occasional slim hopes that it might be!
As far as your prediction about the election, I’ll take that as seriously as any prediction made this early by random internet strangers – meaning that it’s worth exactly nothing. In fact, that’s the main lesson I learned from 2016 – that predictions this early don’t mean anything at all. And predictions close to November only mean anything if they’re based on solid data and come from Nate Silver (and even then they’re just rough estimates).
This is a really interesting post (the part about the school, anyway), and demonstrates that you’re capable of really putting effort into this discussion, despite your apparent negative bias and inclination to default to (sometimes racist) snark mode. I’m not sure if I agree with everything here, but the discussion about the school is well considered and reasoned, AFAICT, rather than effort-free lazy snarking like the post that got you warned. I support the warning of that post (because I still don’t see any other way to read it other than that you’re blaming “black culture” for the low test scores), but if you had made the above post in the thread in question, it would have warranted real conversation and discussion. So I thank you for putting effort into it, and urge you to do so for this and related topics in the future, rather than throw out lazy, racist (or racist-appearing) snark.
Good discussion is always worth the effort, and I applaud you! In case you’re curious, I don’t believe your discussion above regarding school and “black culture” necessarily conflicts with anything I believe or have advocated for, but it’s interesting nonetheless. Based on other data I’ve seen and posted about (and I can refer to links later if anyone’s interested), I believe that the white-black test score disparities are caused by a combination of reduced resources and various discriminatory societal factors that somehow severely reduce the chances of black boys and men to achieve decent outcomes, both in education and in other life statistical indicators. According to one of those studies I posted about, black girls and women have statistical achievements of roughly the same as white girls and women of identical income backgrounds (regardless of whether they come from single or dual parent homes), but black boys and men have significantly reduce achievement levels as compared to white boys and men from identical income backgrounds. So there’s something in society that specifically holds back black boys and men, but not black girls and women, on top of the broader sorts of factors that have resulted in black children generally tending to come from backgrounds of lower incomes.
Your attempts at mind-reading are amusing, as always. But the real thoughtful posting (like the first half of the above!) is always much more interesting, and I’m always pleased when you put real effort into a post. I hope this continues, and I’ll be happy to continue this kind of thoughtful back-and-forth when you choose to engage in it!
Here is the thread I’m referring to that talks about a study that found that, in addition to income inequalities between white and black families, society is specifically holding back black boys in achievement: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=852276
Sorry iiandyiiii, I’m not seeing it. Shodan comes across as holding the opinion that claims like “blacks are dumber” would be OK if warranted by evidence. I agree with Shodan on that specific point, and I think you would too, judging by your contemporary response.
From what I can tell, Shodan did not participate in that thread to defend a position that blacks are dumber. His sole contribution to the thread was to point out that such a position would be acceptable if phrased in a nice way and supported by evidence.
Now, there are moral frameworks where it is never acceptable to claim that blacks are dumber. Particularly, such a claim (even if supported by evidence) contradicts certain forms of egalitarianism, for example the premise that “all men are created equal”. Perhaps you subscribe to such a framework? I know I do - at least, until proven otherwise. Given the choice between that maxim and the truth, I would pick the truth. There are other forms of egalitarianism aside from Locke’s tabula rasa egalitarianism.
~Max
He didn’t specify this – he said that I was probably correct about the “blacks are dumber” crowd, and he characterized them as people who “think it is OK to make true statements if the evidence warrants it”. At the very least, this post is entirely sympathetic with those who argue that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence – and I think it’s also clearly expressing that he explicitly agrees with them.
But it’s not that important, as others have noted – I’m much more interested in the thoughtful discussion he offered about the school and test scores.
As to my feelings, no, it’s not okay, and never okay, to say that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. “Black people” is not a biologically valid grouping; “dumber” (and possibly even intelligence) are not clearly defined and clearly measurable scientific characteristics; and thus this is no more valid a scientific question than “are Jews inherently dishonest and greedy” or “are white people inherently evil”. Maybe at some point we’ll actually have a full understanding (and a clear definition!) of human intelligence, and maybe at some point we’ll fully understand all the genetics and heritable characteristics behind it. But we’re not even close to any of that. I don’t give the benefit of the doubt to those who insist on repeating pseudoscientific nonsense from the 19th century, no matter how they dress this hateful nonsense up.
If you are interested in the conversion of hardcore racists you may find this guy’s story on Joe Rogan interesting:
I love that guy! I’ve read about him and seen interviews before, but not this one. Thanks.