Ummm…I was talking about the scenarios I outlined, not every human interaction in recorded history. When I say hello to my coworker I’m not trying to bone him, and we both recognize that.
I stand by my opinion of you as an idiot.
Given you compare any man who might smile or say hello to a woman as a member of NAMBLA approaching a small boy, I’ll wear that title with honor. You do appear to be the expert, after all.
For the record, I think any interaction to divert a woman who is walking purposefully or to force her into a conversation is creepy and wrong, but if I’m crossing paths with you and I smile and say hello as I pass you, with no intention of breaking either your stride or mine, that’s called “being pleasant.”
I spend about 2 hours on the urban streets every day.
No, I don’t experience catcalling like that. I can think of several reasons for this:
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I live in a city, but I don’t walk through throngs of people. In the afternoons, I’ll pass by clumps of college kids as I walk past the university. But they are usually too absorbed in their smart phones and role-playing games to notice me.
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I’m a woman of a “certain age”. I’m pretty youthful-looking, but I’m not in the “hottie” demographic.
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Even if I were in this demographic, I likely wouldn’t get a lot of attention because I tend to dress androgynously when I’m out and about. Especially in the evening, when the freaks come out.
But at various times of my life, I have received that kind of attention and it was always unwanted. I have memories of timing my exit from certain places so as to avoid the overly friendly guy who always seemed to be waiting for me at a certain street corner or bus stop. I’ve had guys ask for my digits while I’m clearly not in the mood. I’ve had guys shame me for not smiling. I’ve had guys shout insults at me because I decided I didn’t feel comfortable thanking them for a compliment.
What people seem to forget is that even putting someone on “ignore” is burdensome. No one likes to have to ignore someone, because doing so goes counter to deeply engrained habits. We are told it is “proper” to thank someone who pays you a compliment. Women especially are told that it is wrong to be unfriendly…and that we always need to be “nice”. So it is almost impossible not to feel some guilt when you put on your bitch face. But seriously, it is what you have to do sometimes if you want to avoid hassle and regret.
If you are so fucking clueless that you think the people in that video were just being pleasant to her with no ulterior motive, then I don’t think it’s worth talking to you. Just go off and be happy in your little universe.
The conversation has expanded beyond the video. In fact, it happened a while back. But welcome to a few pages ago. Re-read my posts in this thread and then tell me where you think I’m being inappropriate. Or, ya know, just keep sticking with dismissive insults w/o any context. Your call.
Let me give you 100% of the context I need: You spoke to me first, and what you said to me was:
"You said that everyone who says hello to anyone else has an ulterior, sexual agenda. "
Which was a fucking stupid way to interpret what I said.
So, are we done here?
How else should one interpret your fucking stupid analogy? I can’t mold Michaelangelo’s “David” out of a pile of shit. I had to work with what was provided.
But yeah, we’re done.
Yes, “Hello” is where the line should be drawn. You say you cannot imagine a situation where “Hello” is an immediate precursor, but your mistake was thinking immediacy should be the only deciding factor. I think its pretty clear that “Hello” in this case is a sexual proposition, a way for the men to get her attention for something more amorous later on. The comments on her body and the looks she gets tell me that “Hello” will be followed by such an intrusion. That is not a leap in logic, but if you think so, there’s probably no way for me to convince you
Ask yourself how immediate unwanted sexual attention must follow for you to think its a problem, and then why women should only wait until that happens in order to speak up that its a problem. Some choose to ignore all greetings when they are not in the mood to mingle, why is the attention on those women’s behaviors rather than the men?
If you think it’s stupid, explain how.
In what specific, qualitative ways is it different for a man to yell out “hello” at a woman walking by while not looking at him from a pedophile yelling out “hello” at a little boy walking by while not looking at him?
This shouldn’t be complicated. Some non-zero, non-infinitesimal portion of women in Manhattan (and probably some other places) will feel threatened or uncomfortable by unsolicited greetings from strangers while on the street or in public transportation. I don’t want to make anyone at all feel threatened or uncomfortable, so I won’t offer unsolicited greetings to strange women on the street or in public transportation.
And I don’t lose anything by this. I gain the knowledge that “I did my best to not make anyone feel uncomfortable or threatened today”.
Unless you have no problem with making some women feel threatened or uncomfortable, why wouldn’t you also refrain from such behavior?
Once again, the scope has gone beyond the video, to what behavior in general is acceptable. But, I don’t expect you to know that, given your tendency not to be bothered to actually read threads.
I did try to look up the phrase “roof constitutes the introduction” and found 1 mention in a comment on some other posting and a link to this thread. I was not familiar with the phrase, nor the idea behind it.
Even still, I think the idea is dumb. Your hairsplitting of the principle emphasizes the dumbness of this idea. According to this ‘introduction’ idea, some arbitrary venue is okay to hit on people, and some other venues are not. This only works if all the people you interact with subscribe to your view of social norms. They don’t. People should be free to hit on anyone they want, and the other folks should be free to ignore or reject at their leisure. None of that is harassment.
Why? What if you want to join a book club and not be hit on at all? Is it reasonable to feel harassed/threatened/dominated if you are hit on at a book club?
Apparently according to Kimstu a concert would not be appropriate, even though there is also an implication of common interest with other concert goers.
This is an odd way to determine behavior. There is also a non-zero portion of people who will feel threatened by my wearing of a Game of Thrones t-shirt but that doesn’t mean I’m going to avoid wearing it.
Yes, I think the point of this kind of project is to encourage cultural reflection and change.
Of course, some RWs here will hold with de Tocqueville that the pressure of public opinion can be even more tyrannical than the force of the state, but less said of that the better.
What if we are in a less “hurried” setting such as a Starbucks and after exchanging initial pleasantries, I offer my hand for a handshake? That could also make someone feel threatened or uncomfortable.
Listen, I have no problem condemning catcallers, people who chase after women on the street to get their attention, and other obviously intrusive actions, but I seriously think you’re overestimating the level of sensitivity. I can’t imagine a person who lives in such a state of fear, that merely having someone say “hello” to them as they walk by with no intention of an actual conversation is a threatening act.
If a bunch of people told you that it threatened them, or that it made them feel uncomfortable, then you should take it off if you have any interest in not making them feel uncomfortable. In this instance, a bunch of people have said “this behavior makes me feel uncomfortable”. Because the behavior is not necessary, and does me no benefit, I stop this behavior.
In most cases it’s not. But it will make some portion of women feel mildly uncomfortable.
I am actively interested in not making women feel uncomfortable at all, so I choose to refrain from this behavior.
Doesn’t that sound reasonable?
Okay - I accept this is your belief. Every behavior you engage in will make some people uncomfortable. There is probably some set of people who feel uncomfortable when you don’t greet them. It is a completely alien concept to me that someone could live this way, but everyone is different.
Here’s the thing - we’re bound to make people feel uncomfortable throughout the day, regardless of what we do. Driving too close to the car in front of you, passing a car in another lane, etc. But, you know what, when I’m on the highway, I’m bound to pass an individual or two.
Saying hello and being a polite person is a social norm. If it makes you uncomfortable when I walk past you and I just nod, smile and say hi (purely as acknowledgement and not intended to initiate any conversation), then I’d say the problem rests with you, not me.
No, I understood what you are trying to shift the argument to, I simply refuse to follow you as you ignore the main arguments of the debate. Maybe answer my question on the proximity to which a “Hello” deserves to be risked by woman who are used to it meaning much more than a simple greeting? Also it would be nice if you tell me why you can’t seem to treat women in the way that they are asking to be treated. Do you make it a point to go up to strange woman and telling them what they should think?